Chromebooks fucked a generation of kids? Kids got cheap, hard to break, up to date, easy to replace laptops which ran a full desktop and even offered a Linux and android subsystem. Certainly not perfect but better than alternatives like the iPad or Windows S.
I don’t believe that.
It’s likely because the market has consolidated to a small number of companies who can dictate the means of production and how their consumers interact with their product.
When the personal computer market was young, entries from all sorts of manufacturers flooded in. Some failed, some succeeded. Everything had to be configured by the user because universal standards hadn’t been developed yet. This allowed for some people to be exposed to the back end, which have them some understanding of how their technology worked. It enhanced problem solving skills.
If anything, 'Plug and Play" probably had more involvement in enshittification than Google. Taking out the problem solving and moving the goal to consumption.
I think it’s a bit harsh to lay all the blame on google, considering the iPad exists.
Same shit different bucket.
I’d argue the iPad is the bigger offender personally. They’re blaming Chromebooks because that’s often what schools provided, but the same exact timing existed before with iMacs in classrooms all through the 90s and early 00s for millennials despite Windows being by far the more common real world OS they would need to know in the workplace.
But when it comes to portable devices the iPhone and iPad are king, that’s what young people want and often what they’re given. And those operate nearly exactly the same as a Chromebook. Toss everything into a cloud bucket, no user-facing folder structures to learn, everything locked down with limited access and customization. A take it or leave it approach to user interaction.
I have user-facing folder structures on every iOS device I own. What exactly is the extent of your personal experience using iOS?
My experience with iOS devices is mostly non-jailbroken devices, where the file system is not accessible.
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A very limited scope of the filesystem instead of exposing the whole thing. Android does the same thing, and so does every system that doesn’t allow the user to have root access.
Not trying to be rude but the files app is absolutely not giving you anything close to full access to your devices file system. It’s an abstraction over the actual file system if anything.
Ohh…the files are in the computer
Yeah there’s a lot more visible just by connecting via USB but it’s still not good.
Thats already more effort than most people will put forth
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Just to get this straight: you’re comparing the complexity of using OS X to Chrome OS. I hope you’re not also claiming you’ve actually used both of these?
Edit: also, what do you mean “no user-facing folder structures to learn”? iPadOS I get because even though it has one and has for years, it’s not required. But again: have you ever used Chrome OS? I would sooner use TempleOS, and somehow you still managed to make an invalid criticism of such a dogshit operating system.
Edit 2: 23 downvotes; 0 explanations of how I’m wrong. Stay classy, Lemmy.
Huh? I used ChromeOS and Mac OS for work, study and play and I can’t honestly say one is particularly more simplistic or even user-friendly (dumbed-down) than the other. But ChromeOS is significantly less locked down overall in that getting root access on the device is much, much simpler.
- The thing about root access is just objectively untrue. These are the steps to gain root access on macOS as provided by Apple. Meanwhile, I can find no official tutorial from Google, and more importantly, enabling developer mode wipes your Chromebook. I legitimately cannot imagine what on god’s green Earth you did to make the macOS process more painstaking than wiping your device.
- Even if your premise weren’t demonstrably untrue, this isn’t a discussion about what you can theoretically do with a device; it’s about the kind of workflow the device would encourage for a typical student using it. In this regard, a Chromebook is massively dumbed down. Sure you might dip into the downloads folder, but Chrome OS by design encourages the use of web apps as much as humanly possible and severely restricts your ability and incentives to meaningfully interact with your OS outside of a browser.
- Even assuming that the process of gaining root access mattered to this discussion (it categorically doesn’t), what you can and cannot do with that root access would matter far more, and in that unrelated discussion, macOS clearly still wins out (unless you’d want to argue that developer mode lets you install Linux, at which point this is no longer about Chrome OS).
Meanwhile, I can find no official tutorial from Google
This is such an unserious strawman of an argument, how do you not get embarrassed writing this?
There’s no official tutorial for most Android devices either, it doesn’t mean it’s harder to do than on Apple devices.
Even if your premise weren’t demonstrably untrue
Just saying something is so doesn’t make it so, to demonstrate my premise is untrue you have to actually demonstrate how it’s untrue, which you have not done.
it’s about the kind of workflow the device would encourage for a typical student using it
You mean like how Mac OS is locked to the Mac OS App Store by default only, featuring mainly proprietary payware unless you toggle an obscure bypass in the settings, while ChromeOS lets you run any unsigned code for ChromeOS, Linux and Android with minimal effort, all of which are either fully or partially open source and comes with a web browser equipped with a nice set of easily accessible Dev tools, which allows you to examine and learn how web applications are written, architectured and deployed - the largest by far aspect of computer science and software development most people come into contact with regularly?
Even if the conversation was about what you say, you would still be wrong. But it’s not about that, because in a school scenario both would be locked down with an MDM - in Apple’s case literally via serial numbers and network connectivity DRM you can’t realistically block.
And no, this conversation is actually not about that either. A user repairable device doesn’t become less repairable if it discourages your 12 year old from popping out and eating the battery.
severely restricts your ability and incentives to meaningfully interact with your OS outside of a browser.
Any examples on this one, chief? Or you just saying things like that will magically make them true again?
Even assuming that the process of gaining root access mattered to this discussion (it categorically doesn’t),
Of course it does. Really it’s the thing that matters the most.
Sorry but your bailey castle isn’t any more secure than your motte, because access to root is actual freedom over your device, anything less than actual unrestricted root access where I can say, replace the network stack or write and add my own kernel modules for hardware support I want to add or whatever reason I please is by definition not really software (and by extension hardware) I have control over. It’s just another blackbox walled garden.
what you can and cannot do with that root access would matter far more, and in that unrelated discussion, macOS clearly still wins out
Again, do you have any evidence at all to back that up?
And what’s with this weird caveat?
(unless you’d want to argue that developer mode lets you install Linux, at which point this is no longer about Chrome OS).
It’s some real specious reasoning to handwave the most core freedom of all - to simply replace/refuse the OS altogether and bring your own to your hardware, and highly convenient of course because Apple employs many anti-repair, anti-consumer, anti-modification practices from the very screws to their knock-off TPM (T2?) chip to hardware whitelists where everything is married down to the cables and each and every module for no reason other than to maintain control above all.
Please apply more intellectual rigor next time.
Fuck Google and fuck Apple, stop defending them, don’t die on this silly hill and go be free.
Have you even been reading this thread? This is about the level of tech literacy kids get from using an OS for school, not about what you’re theoretically capable of doing. Yes, you’re right, root access on both macOS and Chrome OS would be locked out in a school setting. That makes your braindead argument a non-starter for this discussion. Even if what you said about the rooting difficulty were true (again, showed it isn’t), it could not possibly matter less here. And yes, I am going to say that official, step-by-step documentation that takes a few minutes at most to follow is easier than following some third-party website and then resetting your entire OS.
Even in a situation where it’s not locked down, neckbeards like you and I are in the vanishingly small minority of users who ever touch root access; when we’re talking about generations of people being raised to be tech-illiterate, root access has fuck-all to do with that. Unless the OS is incentivizing average users to use root access enough that a sizable portion actually would (desktop Linux and nothing else), then a comparison of which OS gives easier root access couldn’t be less relevant when talking about an entire generation of kids.
Here, Chrome OS is meaningfully much worse than OS X for teaching kids tech literacy on the grounds that the average user experience is dumbed down to hell. Meanwhile:
Fuck Google and fuck Apple, stop defending them
Literally where? I’ve done nothing but lambast Chrome OS this entire thread except to correctly point out that it has user-facing folders which you do often interact with. Apple? By correctly pointing out that the Apple desktop ecosystem is massively less dumbed-down than Chrome OS, I’m defending them? Dude, I use Linux and Android (the latter begrudgingly; locked bootloader) and would never purchase an Apple product again for the foreseeable future; next time, save your sweaty, mouth-foaming screed about Apple bad for when you actually find someone who likes and supports Apple.
The original commenter compared ipados to chromeos, and they compared osx to windows, I never saw a comparison from osx to chromeos.
The point being made is that modern operating systems often times in the hands of kids (chromeos and ipados) are designed to abstract away much of the underlying elements of the os.
They absolutely compared OS X to Chrome OS by directly comparing what Apple did in the 90s and 00s to what Google did in the 10s. If you take the comment as its own isolated thing, sure; if you understand it as a response to another comment (which it is), then the comparison is smacking you in the face.
What planet am I on right now? Should this conversation be about media literacy instead of tech literacy?
It is rich that you are suggesting this should be about media literacy. How do you connect “what apple did on the 90s” and “what chrome OS did in the 00s” (which it was the 10s, not the 00s) as a direct comparison between operating systems? What the commenter is suggesting is that both google and apple had a hand in making students not prepared to interact with technology, not that they did it in the same way.
I don’t even agree with that statement as I believe being exposed to macs at school (and likely windows at home) woild be beneficial to tech literacy. But you couldn’t even comprehend enough to engage with the point. They were saying macos is not windows, and windows is what kids should be learning. Then you come in and yell and scream about mac being better than chrome.
You were down voted because you were wrong and an asshole
How do you connect “what apple did on the 90s” and “what chrome OS did in the 00s” (which it was the 10s, not the 00s) as a direct comparison between operating systems?
Because they’re directly saying that Apple did with Macintosh what Google did with Chromebooks and that wasn’t a problem for real-world tech literacy.
What the commenter is suggesting is that both google and apple had a hand in making students not prepared to interact with technology, not that they did it in the same way.
Except that they’re using iMacs as a precedent that dumbed-down Chromebooks didn’t (at least substantially) harm tech literacy. My interpretation is somehow a generous one, because the other interpretation is that they’re comparing the iMac being complex but different from the industry standard to Chrome OS being dumbed down. These are two vastly different things.
I comprehended enough: either option is stupid as fuck – just one indicates a lack of evidence while the other indicates a lack of basic logic.
You were down voted because you were wrong […]
I’m wrong? Yeah, I originally said “00s and 10s” for Chrome OS because I thought it came out in 2008, but I looked it up and corrected myself yesterday(?) to just “10s” – completely incidental to the point of my comment. Did you notice too that OS X didn’t exist in the 90s but I called it that anyway for simplicity? No? Oh, that’s right: no one actually gives a shit.
Meanwhile, they’re spouting provable and obvious misinformation about how Chrome OS doesn’t have a user-facing folder system, so I think your explanation for why I was downvoted should leave out “I was wrong”. Clearly the voters didn’t give a shit about factual accuracy. I’m sure the other commenter used Chrome OS enough to judge it when they’re saying that. Weird how you didn’t address the part of my comment correcting transparent misinformation.
You were down voted because you were […] an asshole
I was an asshole. And any mixture of “wrong” and “an asshole” gets blind upvotes on Lemmy all the time. No, what got me downvotes is that Lemmy doesn’t have Reddit’s hidden votes feature that stops a cascade of morons blindly downvoting anything that’s at negative (I was at +2, -23 when I made my second edit; just acknowledging that blind, uncritical downvoting took that ratio from ~1:11 to ~1:3). And I’ll continue being a condescending asshole until this Lemmy equivalent of boomers giving one star to businesses they’ve never been to – because Google asked them to rate their experience – is dead.
Have a nice day.
Based on this small exchange it seems like you erect straw men to knock down to inflate your intellectual self worth which is incredibly fragile based on how much you freaked out over a tiny correction that I didn’t use at all in my argument.
If you are actually interested in engaging with the topic try harder to read what I have said
You’re not wrong. This is just lemmy.
It is more basic than that:
“It just works” is terrible for developing computer skills.
It is damned convenient for the most part, but it removes the opportunity to have an issue and solve it, developing your troubleshooting skills.
Then we come to the lack of verbosity of modern operating systems and programs.
“Oops, there is an issue, please wait while we solve it…” is an absolutely terrible error message.
“Error 0x001147283b - Fatal error” is a far better error message.
I agree with the the sentiment of your comment, but I think both error codes aren’t great.
I want error logs or descriptions, not a cryptic code that the Company selling the OS can choose not to document publicly.
Error codes are fantastic, even undocumented codes gives users the ability to coordinate on forums and blogs to figure out the issue in a far easier manner
I can google one of these on another device and figure out what it means and at least attempt to fix it. “Something went wrong :(” helps fucking no one
Until you search that error code and it doesn’t tell you anything useful.
Then you ask on a forum and others can help you easier
Have you ever worked in an environment powered by Windows-based computers, and Microsoft software? Have you ever spoken with any user in such an environment about their experience with errors like the ones you described, and how easy or difficult it was to solve them?
I am not doing the whole passive aggressive argument where you refuse to say what your issue is and hold a clear conversation so you can try and seem like the winner and claim that I am an idiot because you have misunderstood my comment.
But to answer the specific questions posted:
Have you ever worked in an environment powered by Windows-based computers, and Microsoft software?
Yes, it has been my job for fifteen years.
Have you ever spoken with any user in such an environment about their experience with errors like the ones you described, and how easy or difficult it was to solve them?
Not only do I speak with them several times a workday, I am usually the one solving said problems meaning I get to experience it all.
My point stands, I don’t even see yours.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the clarification. That actually reinforces my point. You and I both work with people who use Windows daily and encounter these verbose errors—but they almost never understand them. They don’t use these messages to develop troubleshooting skills—they just get stuck and frustrated.
So while I get the appeal of a detailed error message in theory, in practice, it doesn’t help most users learn anything. If anything, it just creates more dependency on people like us to fix things for them.
Thank you for accepting my initial rant, I am all for a proper discussion.
I get what you mean, and while true that most people won’t get better at troubleshooting because of a verbose error message, even back in the Windows 95/98 days where you had verbose error messages, most people would still not be capable of understanding them, myself included at that time.
But my point is that the small minority of people who would start troubleshooting the stuff, myself included these days, would be vastly more helped by a verbose error message than a generic “Whops! Something went wrong, please wait!”
Modern software are not even giving people the same initial chances to troubleshoot the issue as older software did.
Oh, on that I totally agree. And not just with Microsoft with everything I run into Microsoft is especially bad because their attitude seems to we need to do something. You don’t need to know what it is and we’re not gonna tell you how long it takes so just fuck right off Which is monumentally annoying of course Apple does give a bunch of code and stuff for errors when something goes wrong and you can send it the developers, and I have never taken the time to try to figure out what any of that stuff is because I am not gonna be able to fix whatever it is and so I’m not gonna take the time. However, in my line of work where I’m supervising a lot of file ingestion people, data, architects, and software engineers, it definitely behooves me to understand what the errors I’m seeing with our own in-house proprietary products are. It’s especially frustrating when some of the higher up software engineers want to exclude me from meetings about the products going down because they claim it’s too technical for me. It’s not, of course, it’s not even the real reason; they just want to exclude me because they’re afraid of sharing their weaknesses or something. I have completely figured out what they are worried about yet, but it’s maddening.
Also, the total number of Chromebooks sold worldwide is tiny compared with phones and tablets. Most kids have probably never seen a Chromebook, but virtually every kid has held and used a phone, a tablet or both.
If you want to blame Google, blame Android, not Chromebooks.
Yeah Apple was pushing their “BSD for morons” laptops om schools long before chromebooks were a thing.
It’s this and it’s not. Chromebooks don’t give kids anywhere to explore outside of chrome and handheld devices provide a controlled environment. A lot of kids (and adults!) are operating with a tablet in place of a computer because the most intensive thing they need to do if they’re not gaming is word processing. It’s big tech overall and the internet shrinking down into like 3 companies.
So the argument is that because Chromebooks just work and don’t need troubleshooting unlike windows so this is Googles fault
OK
No, the argument is that Chromebooks are so limited in what they can offer that kids never learned to do anything out of using the chrome browser.
Turns out you don’t need to worry about troubleshooting something if you just remove that functionality lol
Most Chromebooks offered Linux on them. Even Linus Torvalds used a Chromebook when travelling to develop via it. Presumably because he was sick to death of “troubleshooting” when he had other, better things to do. And presumably schools and teachers also have better things to do than deal with bs like conflicting packages, missing drivers, viruses or whatever on every kid’s device.
You are correct that most chromebooks can have Linux installed on them.
I don’t think that’s relevant in a discussion about Chromebooks in a school setting - were schools encouraging their students to install Linux?
Doesn’t matter if they encourage it or, not, the option is there. So if kids want to mess around, compile stuff, run Linux games they can totally do it. The main purpose of the laptop however would be to do work, save / submit stuff to the cloud, run all day and be cheap so if it gets stolen or broken it’s less expense to replace. I think in that role the Chromebook is the best solution anyone came up with. And there were a long line of contenders.
Is the option actually there, as in it’s allowed by school policy? Would you be able to show an example confirming this?
I highly doubt a school IT department would be okay with this. The very post were discussing asserts that it was marketed to schools as something that can be locked down.
I’d also argue that even if it was allowed, whether or not it was encouraged undoubtedly matters.
These are kids we’re talking about, not engineers. Additionally, were discussing technical competence at the generational level, so we’d have to rule out outliers, which I’d handily believe “kids who installed linux on their school Chromebooks” would fall under.
I don’t have my Chromebook to hand but I believe the setting is in the Prefs. When you set up Linux it’s a virtualized Debian that you can pretty much do anything with but it can’t mess with ChromeOS outside. Not all Chromebooks support it since it’s space / CPU dependent but if it does then it’s Linux. I was even running graphical apps since the screen is a Wayland server.
I don’t…think that answered my question?
Would this be against school policy? Are there examples to confirm this?
All Chromebooks ARE Linux. ChromeOS is a Linux based operating system. Whether or not you can get to the lower level is a different discussion. I had one of the first Chromebooks, you have always been able to root them and do what you want with them.
They don’t need to know how computers work if Chromebooks are the only thing in existence.
They also don’t need to know how to deal with python dependencies if they can pace their code into AI and say why isn’t tkinter working?
Craftsmrn said the same thing about the industrial revolution.
That’s honestly technology in a nutshell. Technological development leads to further abstraction, leading to less low level knowledge. It’s always been this way. Is AI an abstraction step too far, or are we just the next generation of old man yelling at cloud?
I asked myself that question a lot.
When cloud first became a thing I yelled at the cloud a lot. Then I got on board with provisioning. And they stepped up the game with load balancers that actually have features security groups SSL unwrapping.
No I realize that one person with a cloud account can do the work of three or four of system engineers.
If you know what you’re doing, you can definitely do this hybrid of vibe coding and real coding. You can’t just give it a problem and tell it to solve it you need to tell it exactly what you’re expecting it to do. Occasionally you can ask it if it has any suggestions and it’ll come back with something that you didn’t think of that’s not a half bad idea.
That said, there’s a lot of idiots out there with zero skill just vibr coating stuff they have no business doing leaving vulnerabilities and caution to the wind.
AI has value but first a reality check. Most of the time it produces code which doesn’t work and even if it did is usually of terrible quality, inconsistent style, missing checks, security etc. That’s because there is no “thinking” in AI, it’s a crank handle using training and some rng to shit out an answer.
If you know what you’re doing it can still be a useful tool. I use it a lot but only after carefully reading what it says and understanding the many times it is wrong.
If you don’t know how to program everything might look fine. Except when it crashes, or fails on corner cases, or follows bad practice, or drags in bloated 3rd party libs, or runs out of memory on large datasets or whatever. So don’t trust anybody who blindly uses it or claims to be a “vibe” programmer since it amounts to admission of an incompetence.
You know how you know even less about computers? When you cannot afford one at all
That’s why they only know what Chromebook offers, they have them in school.
My kid’s school doesn’t have any kind of computer instruction, no computer lab, it’s all Chromebooks.
This seems silly. Lots of kids never learned about computers even when they were available. A chromebook was just an electronic school aid. If the interest was in computers they would learn about computers.
I think this is a fairly dumb take. In the schools that I saw that had chromebooks a kid might be taking English, Math, AND computing. It really was up to the school (and parents) to introduce computing, not the machine that was the general replacement for books.
Anecdotally: a high school near us requires every student to have a computer. They do not hand out chromebooks and the requirement specs are a higher end Mac or PC laptop that the kids are required to bring to classes. These kids use blender, maya 3d, office suite, video and music editing software for example. They absolutely do not know any more about computers then chromebook kids (with a few exceptions). Having access to a computer doesnt magically make them know about how computers work.
The real take is to get kids into PC gaming from a young age. Kids are super patient with each other and now my kid is doing things like installing mods for games that he plays. It’s also massively improved his reading which is mostly how I learned English myself.
I can thank Minecraft for making me learn how to use the computer because I wanted to install mods and for learning English because Minecraft let’s plays were like crack to 10 year old me and basically all of them were in English
That’s awesome, I love hearing stories like this. I was lucky to have access to a PC since I was about 8 years old and computer literacy is probably the most useful skill I have. Nothing teaches PC literacy better than pirating software with complex readmes lol or having to fix the family computer because you infected it with a virus. Had me stressing, looking at the task manager and searching for the origins of every .exe to find the culprit
Probably a great way to get them comfortable with pc hardware too - want that new GPU? Here you go. Install it, you just get the one so be careful and learn how to do it right.
I probably wouldn’t let my son install a GPU until he’s a bit older just because of the cost lol but it is simple enough for a teenager to do, I think.
This is kinda a bad take imo. I don’t think it’s chrome books that has ruined tech literacy. Maybe it’s younger exposure to even more addictive social media than previous generations?
I’m pretty young. My first mobile device was an iPod touch 4th gen. I figured out how to jailbreak it and I was like 12 at the time. If I ever felt one of these walled garden devices was holding me back, I enjoyed finding a creative solution around that. Since that iPod touch, I jailbroke my Wii and recently a kindle. I also modded a gameboy, but that was different than jailbreaking.
Yeah it’s a fucking abysmal take. More kids had access to the internet and computers because of Chromebooks, without them they’d have had nothing - maybe once an hour in the computer lab each week, assuming they even had one.
Prior to Chromebooks, the most a school could do was “a computer in every classroom”. That was it, that was the ambition in the early 2000’s and even then most schools failed.
What happened was tech companies made computers easier to use by hiding a lot of that complexity. And average humans were fine with that because shit should just work.
The arguments being raised here about a loss of skills are the same arguments boomers used against millennials because they didn’t know how to do DIY and shit like that.
The blame is always squarely on the education system. That system is supposed to set kids up with the skills they need to make it in the wold and tech literacy is one of many, many areas that is hugely underserved.
were fine with that because shit should just work.
This was Apple’s literal marketing campaign when they were trying to make Macs popular again
And say what you will about apple, it worked (the slogan, not the Macs)
Not to mention that Chromebooks are Linux (so can be modded for basically anything), but these days have official native support for sideloading any Linux distro you please. All it takes is a flashed USB drive and one button click, then you’re totally unrestricted and out of ChromeOS.
If any kid wanted to, they could do that far easier than I could when I was in school. If they become adults, buy a Chromebook, and choose to do nothing with it other than watch YouTube, then it has absolutely nothing to do with the technology that was provided to them during school.
official native support for sideloading any Linux distro you please.
I thought you had to remove a write protect screw and flash a custom firmware.
Have they stopped that now?
The school doesn’t let you do that. Because if you installed Linux you could install games, and then you might get distracted. Never mind the fact that YouTube is still completely available.
I looked into this back when I was in school and there was some weird workaround found by someone on reddit that essentially forced it to do a complete factory reset. I didn’t want to get in trouble for doing that, and if I did that I wouldn’t have been able to connect to the wifi anymore.
Do you mean like booting off Linux or installing it? I was looking at installing Linux on Chromebooks and apparently it really depends on the model. Some have a physical screw that you open up the laptop and unscrew to install Linux.
What did you jailbreak your ipod with, though? Was it a chromebook?
Probably windows 🤮
I think there were jailbreaks that could be done on device, but if I remember correctly this wasn’t one of them. I forget the exact year/iOS version. I wanna say I jailbroke 3 iOS versions in a row, and at that point new things had captured my interest. Eventually I found myself captivated with frontend development.
You can find my latest work at https://blorpblorp.xyz/, the obviously best client for Lemmy and soon PieFed.
So you had access to a fairly open device, where the system was considerably less restrictive than a Chromebook. Apparently many first time users don’t have that luxury any longer. They’re stuck with phones and chromebooks (phones with a keyboard slapped on, really). Good luck hacking anything with that locked up shit.
Someone else pointed out it’s not that difficult to boot Linux on your Chromebook off a thumb drive. A quick search shows it might be slightly complicated but seems pretty doable depending on your model.
Listen I hate Google, but this still seems like a dumb take. There are better things to criticize them for: illegal monopolization of search through anticompetitive practices, making their search product worse on purpose, having no respect for people’s privacy, literally removing their slogan to not be evil, etc).
I just see it as another item on a long list.
You know what, we probably agree on most of that list. And I’m happy we have Lemmy.
As I said above, schools don’t let you do that on their Chromebooks. Of course they could provide the same restrictions on other computers probably, so idk if blaming Google is the correct move.
Although they would have to go as far as not allowing any external executables for it to be that locked down.
What are the advantages of a jailbroken kindle? I’ve thought about it but there isn’t really anything I lack on mine.
My motivation was mostly to ditch Amazon, but in the process I discovered ko reader is both better than Amazon’s reader and does a really good job turning PDFs into readable books.
I am pretty confident it’s the smartphone OSs (Android and iOS) that are more at fault. I remember having to install a file browser on my smartphone. Kids grown up with smartphones may not even know there are files and folder structures.
Yeah, and I feel like you could play around with javascript to make stuff happen in the browser on a chrome book, can’t you?
I’m old enough that it was BASIC I played around with when I was a kid. Not a language I ever used since, but the important thing is to get a feel for logic, make some incredibly stupid choices when making a program and learn from that. If a kid wants to play around on a computer to make it do something they created, I think they’ll find a way.
Also AI can be helpful when starting on a new language. Yeah I had to learn the hard way by googling stuff and getting the syntax wrong, and using a lot of guess work. There’s still a learning curve before you just know the syntax without stopping to think or asking the AI, but it was that way before, it was just googling things you gotta do before you really know it. And before that a lot more trial and error to figure it out.
This is an incredibly dumb take. Tech isn’t one dimensional and there isn’t a “right” path to tech literacy. I grew up on Windows and I learned a lot of what I know by exploring my laptops and learning new things out of necessity. I ended majoring in CS in working in tech. My sister, who’s 5 years younger than me, had Chromebooks growing up both at home and at school, yet she’s also a very proficient CS major. Using Chromebooks doesn’t show that someone is bad at tech, that’s just a baseless assumption.
Chromebooks are just another branch of tech, and there’s really nothing wrong with them. They’re basically Android tablets in laptop form. Google giving them to schools at a deeply discounted price is not a bad thing. Without them, many schools wouldn’t have any sort of tech for their kids to work with. Chromebooks are incredibly useful tools that can enable teachers to incorporate material from the internet into their lessons and help streamline their work.
Hating on things for the sake of hating on them is just lazy and counterproductive. There’s a lot to criticize Google for, Chromebooks are not one of them.
Being a CS major (even a good one) isn’t a solid measure of tech literacy. CS still suffers from the “do this arbitrary thing so you can get credit”; along with other majors and American schools at large.
Actually I’ve seen first hand the dumbing down of curriculum in my CS program via my younger peers’ stories, and helping them with their coursework. And it’s 100% due to low tech literacy.
Edit: grammar.
Not Android, Linux. I was trying to figure out why there are so few Android tablets and read that Google didn’t have complete control with Android. That’s why Samsung and HTC and others put their own overlay on it. They didn’t want that for laptops/bigger devices, so for ChromeOS they locked it down and told the hardware manufacturers “no, it’s ChromeOS. You can’t fiddle with it. If you want to make Chromebooks, these are the minimum specs and this is the keyboard you must use. If not, fuck off.”
These kind of takes have the usual format of “anything a company does is bad” and is profit driven. They forget that there is something called marketing and optics behind it.
Nah
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of big corporations, but Schools are gonna have to be using Device Management programs regardless of what OS they use (so that kids don’t play video games, or use social media, or watch adult videos, in the classroom). Giving kids a Managed Windows Laptop with tons of restrictions does nothing to “improve tech literacy” either, so just as bad as a chrombook.
Also, wealth is also a factor. If you only have money for one device, and everyone has a smartphone, and you kids are gonna get socially ostricized in school for not having one, of course you’re gonna prioritize giving them a smartphone first, which in turn, delays them learning how to use a computer, and I mean like a computer you actually own and can modify however you want, as opposed to the school-owned managed device. (Its harder to learn that when you’re older)
Eh, I don’t really agree.
To want to learn something starts with curiosity and the willingness to learn. I was always trying to fuck around with games and programs before I knew that modding was even a thing. When I was met with restrictions I always tried breaking them. I got around admin protection on school computers that literally only had access to the desktop.
My youngest brother on my dad’s side (my family is complicated) is a shut-in who barely acts like the adult he’s supposed to be, never owned a chromebook, and sits in front of the computer more than I even do. He is incredibly tech illiterate.
Yeah it’s a pretty bad take IMHO. When I was a kid we had one 386 desktop computer running MS-DOS. No laptops, phones or tablet. I always liked computers and when I went to high school I noticed a bunch of old broken computers in a storage room one day. Asked the computer teacher (we had computer classes learned MS Word and (blind) typing) if I could try to fix them. Me and a friend spend many luch breaks swapping parts, until about half of them worked again. Learning about something is mostly your willingness to learn. As a highschool kid I would have loved to get a laptop. If I had a Chromebook I’m fairly sure I would have tried to run a custom OS on it or see what else non standard thing I could have unlocked.
If a kid is working with a 600mhz CPU in 2025, what can they realistically do with that Chromebook other than figure out how to get past a firewall? I remember 2nd hand stories of kids bringing in USBs with cracked minecraft or quake, or screwing around with windows themeing and other nonsense. Now, thats gone. You get a browser, and a file manager. No themes, sometimes no access to even change the wallpaper, all in googles little sandbox. I think this post is somewhat accurate but leaves out the role iPhones play in tech ilitteracy
First of all, this isn’t enshitification as defined by Corey Doctorow. This has nothing to do with an internet platform getting worse because the priorities of the proprietors changed.
I don’t think it’s entirely fair to blame Google for this. None of these companies do this for entirely altruistic reasons. At the core of the problem is funding in education. Google saw an opportunity and jumped on it. When given a choice that kids get no computer hardware vs. dumping price Chromebooks I would still vote Chromebook. Get your politicians to set aside less money for tanks and more money for education.
Besides, no one is stopping kids from exploring other platforms. Google is looking for an infrastructure lock-in, get them locked in while they are young, but you can go do other stuff. It’s also a question of financial means and interests. And they don’t need to do LAN parties because they already have Fortnite and stuff. Life moves on. Your childhood was also markedly different from your parents’.
The Chromebook does exactly what it says on the tin. It is a cheap notebook which runs Chrome. And it’s fairly competent at that task. It’s exactly as advertised. The problem only arises when people think that the ability to use a Chromebook is acceptable as a substitute for the ability to use a normal computer.
This is kind of like blaming car manufacturers for people not knowing how to drive manual and how cars work under the hood, because they made cars reliable and simple to use.
There’s always an incentive to make things more accessible. Skills always become outdated because of that. How many of us know how to skin game and cook it on naked fire? Not many, I presume.
Chromebook for all its flaws and limitations still let children, who would not have otherwise used any computing device, at least use one.
I feel like this analogy is perfect, but not just for the reason you used it.
Car manufacturers making cars easier to use and require less maintenance is great. Your point in regards to people just not needing the old skills because of that is spot on.
But car manufacturers have also been making intentional design decisions to make accessing things under the hood require speciality tools or needlessly complex when it is needed. There are cars where you can’t replace headlights without removing the whole front bumper assembly. That isn’t the fault of the owner/user, and it’s not a case of “improvements make old skills obsolete”. It’s design intentionally hostile to the goal of allowing owners to even attempt it themselves. Scummy as hell, and we should be holding these companies responsible.
Google has done and is doing the same thing with Chromebooks and Android. File system? Folders to organize my files? What?
And now we have people who don’t know how to operate their car’s headlights, and people who can’t find files if they aren’t in the “recent documents” list.
For sure, taking control away from the users is terrible and scummy, but I think it’s an entirely different issue, covered by “right to repair”. A very small amount of people had the know how and the confidence to perform the repairs themselves even before this anti consumer practices became so widespread, so I don’t think it’s a huge factor in decrease of skill. I would say a much bigger factor is the fact that technology has become exponentially more complex. You can’t just open up a radio and replace a vacuum tube, everything is a microchip now, and the soldering iron isn’t gonna help much there. I guess eventually we will reach technology complexity and abstraction of such a level that no single person can hold the knowledge to “fix” it on their own.
Yup. I’m teaching my son CAD/CAM with a 3d printer, low level programming and electronics with Arduino, he helps with mechanical and electrical repairs. Linux with the home server. Fishing, hunting, and camping. Wasn’t ready this year for steers or chickens but hopefully will next year. Wife is teaching him how to cook, (I’m a decent cook, but she is amazing). Simple sewing. Basic carpentry. And so on.
School isn’t going to teach him much of this, but we will.
Wanted to say the same thing you said, but with actual literacy. Books exist, but the desire to be literate is not there.
Back in my day we brought our own MS-DOS boot disks to school to circumvent all the limitations.
For me it was Backtrack Linux on a bootable CD-RW. Set the Windows wallpaper as my background and nobody ever noticed. Man those were the days!
Boomers and Gen X often handed tech problems to their kids, assuming young people just get it. That mindset stuck—tech as an innate skill, not something learned.
Millennials did learn, but by messing around—customizing MySpace, bypassing school filters, using forums. We had to figure it out. Now, everything’s simplified and locked down. Because we’re the ones making a lot of the tech and we’ve figured it out for them. You don’t need to understand the tech we make to use it.
The problem? Older generations think kids will “just get it,” like we did. But no one’s teaching them. We’re giving them phones and tablets, not skills or understanding. We assume either they just get it, or that they’re tinkering around like “we” did.
I’ve found that with my “pre gen x” (born in the 60s, does that make her a boomer?) mother, she seems to have really bought in to all the old “computers make everything easy!” marketing, so when whatever she wants to do isn’t she just kind of gives up. Also ties into her not understanding the value of my career (sysadmin).
To her, computers aren’t complex tools that may take some skills and training to utilize properly, they’re “press the button to make it do exactly what I want” and when that doesn’t work she gets very frustrated.
That, plus she has had just enough exposure to computers in the 90s that she still on some level sees them as very easy to irreperably break expensive luxury items, so when she is rarely willing to work for it then she’s afraid to poke around in menus because she thinks she could break it permanently.
And to be fair, if you don’t set up your laptop using “cattle, not pets” strategies, it can be easy to get four levels deep in a menu and tweak some shit that fucks up an entire program. Then your option is to remember what you did to revert it, or just blow the damn thing out and reinstall (if it actually clears settings on uninstall, not a given).
How old do you think GenX is?! We had the first home computers, learned the PC as it hit the market.
Not OP, but wanted to chime in.
I get the sentiment Some Gen Xers did grow up with home computers. However, I suspect those people are outliers due to both the cost and general user friendlyness. In the late 90s it seemed like everyone had a home computer, even the normies. This let their kids grow up messing around
It almost seems like we’re heading back in this direction, where normies have moved on to phones and tablets because they “just work”. I don’t think the average kid will grow up as immersed in computers as I did unless their parents are intentionally about making that introduction. I bought my kid a used Thinkpad for Christmas last year. Most of his peers have tablets or just stick to their smartphone.
You didnt learn anything hitting the market unless you were well off, significantly.
Not true at all. Most of my friends had less money than we did and we all had a home computer. Obviously not $4,000 IBMs, but we had Atari, VIC-20, TI, Commodore 64, etc. The rich kid had an Apple ][.
Computers like the Commodore 64 and TRS-80 weren’t that expensive.
Granted, the original IBM PC was pricy, but it was also targeted at business users.
I was thinking of my own experiences, but that’s why I said “often.” I personally find that older people who use tech are honestly much better than other generations when it comes to it. My grandma has been into tech from the jump and she blows my mom out of the water when it comes to tech skill. But I find that the ones who were not interested have a hard time catching up. Mostly because it all happened so fast
that’s the problem but the blame can also be squarely placed on us Millennials. Like you said when we were younger and older people had tech issues they’d hand it to us assuming we “get it” but we didn’t. we had to learn it by teaching ourselves. We taught ourselves how to write html, css, etc via Geocities and Myspace. We taught ourselves how to build computers or learned via tv shows like The Screensavers or Call for Help or just by reading PC magazines. AND THEN we decided since we taught ourselves all these solutions and what have you that we’d make it easier for future generations. We developed apps and tools that “just work” no tinkering needed, no customization needed, those are predefined settings. And we’re not teaching kids, we’re providing them with OUR solutions. Like you said we assume they “just get it” because we had to just get it. We didn’t have a choice. If we wanted a custom internet or tech experience we had to do it ourselves.
Today those options are provided because we provided it for them. They don’t need to be as tech literate as we had to be because we made things easier for them.
