It is the same language. In fact some regions of Spain suck at speaking their own language. Spanish has a central authority that collects and organizes Spanish as it is used in the real world and it codifies it into its official rules. Furthermore, because of its grammar and syntax rules, you always know exactly how every word is pronounced just by reading it. There might be accents and regional synonyms, but there is a “standard” Spanish that everyone learns speaks.
And then when to actually spend any time in a place where Spanish is the first language, you start to understand that, like any language, there’s the academic form (commonly taught to non-native speakers as a second or third etc. language), and then there’s the local version, complete with an the colloquialisms and slang and unique pronunciations. In Argentina, the double-L (which school taught me makes a “y” sound, “ella” being pronounced basically “ey-ya”) is commonly produced as more of a soft “J” sound (“ella” becomes “ey-jha”). As far as my (admittedly limited) knowledge goes, that’s really not common outside of Argentina. And then in Bolivia, especially among native descendants (Quechua and Aymara predominantly), the double-r (which school taught me is one of two conditions when you roll the R with a tongue trill) is more commonly pronounced almost like a “zh” (“herramienta” becomes “hezhamienta”). Again, not common outside of Bolivia. Spain has that classic “Barthelona” lisp, and uses the “vosotros” pronoun where most South American Spanish speakers would probably use “ustedes” (basically “y’all” vs. “esteemed plural second persons”). And that’s not even getting into which verb tenses are used most widely in different regions. There’s like 14 or 15 specific verb tenses in Spanish to English’s 7, and in school I was taught to use specific ones to communicate effectively; then I went and spent two months in Bolivia pretty much never using past perfect or predicate, instead using past imperfect for 95% of interactions, only using past perfect with other folks que hablan español como segunda lengua, or in a few very specific interactions where more specifically was required than would be so in common, everyday interactions.
Colombians, at least Paisas, also have the double ll = j sound and use vosotros! Spanish dialects can get wild lol
Neat! I probably never would have known that if you hadn’t told me!
An addendum to the ll, Elle. It’s not like ey-ya, that’s wrong pronounciation, it’s like a literal bibrating L.
You might be referring to the same phoneme since y sounds like the soft J you are referencing, but yeah.
Oh yeah totally! That’s a much better explanation of that specific phoneme. I went for the over-simplified version that was being taught to me in middle school, where I think the assumption was mostly “we need to teach them grammatical and structural rules and not worry about natural sounding pronunciation” which probably contributes strongly to the gringo accent where vowels aren’t pronounced consistently, but shift more like they do in English, and creates mispronunciations that are so grating and confusing (especially between certain a, i, & e sounds)
Spaniard living in the US here to clarify how our language works. Spaniards are the best at speaking their own language by definition. We make the language, and we decide how it evolves. When you say many Spaniards suck at speaking their own language, I think you are getting confused with the many dialects that exist within the Spain. Some dialects, while being perfectly and dramatically correct, are very hard for non-native speakers to understand. Pronunciation of letters may change from dialect to dialect, but the grammar is basically the same.
The authority that sets the Spanish language grammar rules (Real Academia Española - RAE) is in Spain, and it’s rules only apply to the “standard” Spanish dialect spoken in Spain, which is also known as Castillian. However, there are multiple other dialects of Spanish within Spain (and multiple other languages that are not Spanish - Galego, Catalan, Euskera, etc). Other countries that speak other Spanish dialects choose if they want to follow or not the rules set by the RAE, and many Spanish dialects do not follow those rules. Some Spanish speaking countries have their own organizations to define their Spanish dialects. There are dialects of Spanish that are very different from the original Castillian Spanish. For example, listen to Argentinian Spanish, and compare it to Castillian Spanish. The difference is noticeable even for non-Spanish speakers. They also use a slightly different grammar.
I mean. You’re just wrong. Maybe if you’d focused more on the info and less on your nationalism you’d have noticed.
RAE doesn’t make the rules “just for Castillan”. RAE describes, rather than just ‘make up’, the rules of the Spanish as used around the world. They observe how Spanish is used and codify that. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Also, the whole point of dialects is that they vary in vocabulary and grammar, otherwise they are the base language itself. I don’t even know what you’re saying?
Did you even visit the RAE’s website before answering? Or did you just assume that because you’re an spaniard living in the US you have perfect knowledge? Because it checks out.
Same language but with huge differences world wide, as languages tend to do. Believe a person whom lived in Mexico for over 2 decades, Mexican Spanish is NOT the exact same. It’s mostly similar and you’ll be able to understand but it will be immediately obvious that it’s very different.
I watch Spain Spanish movies and regularly have trouble understanding it all
Because it’s the same language. I grew up in Argentina, and the “Spanish” (the name of the language is actually Castilian because there are multiple languages in Spain) we learn at school is the “Spain” one. In reality it’s the language as defined by the Real Academia Española so the language is the same (yes it includes the vosotros conjugation, no, no one outside Spain actually uses that but we learn it in school).
The differences between Mexican, Argentinian or Spanish Castilian is more in the pronunciation and the use of some words, but the language we learn at school is all the same, and I imagine it’s the same one that you learn too.
That being said, using vosotros to us sounds similar to how using thy might sound in English. A good teacher would explain that outside of Spain we use ustedes which uses the plural third person conjugation (i.e. the same one as ellos), but the correct plural second person is vosotros.
Thy is the super formal form of the conjugation, vosotros is the colloquial form of ustedes.
Tu-vosotros. Usted-ustedes. You-yall. Thou-thy.
You have it backwards, it’s the Latin countries which sound super formal and awkward to us spaniards.
I’m not American so I’m speaking out of turn. But could it be resourcing?
Curriculums have to be made, and that sort of thing takes time and money. So I imagine it’s easier to take a curriculum for European Spanish that already exists and just keep using it under the assumption that it’s “close enough” for students to jump to Mexican Spanish from there, rather than reinvent the curriculum for Mexican Spanish.
I took Spanish-for-Spanish-Speakers in public school so my experience may be different.
“Spanish-Spanish” (Castillian-Spanish, Castellano) is pretty easy universally understood and accepted as a “proper” Spanish. It seemed to work well despite our mixed nationalities in the class (Cuban, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Colombian, Venezuelan, Nicaraguan, and a few more but those are first that came to mind.)
Idk which variant of spanish I’m learning, but the teachers keep playing the Cinco de Mayo cartoon something about the day of the dead, so I’m assuming its the Mexico version.
The tipoffs to being Spain Spanish if they teach extra conjugations for vosotros and if they speak evening with a lisp because at some point it was decided to emulate a king with a speech impediment.
No answers from me here, but I’m curious - how much of the US learns Spanish in school?
My knowledge may be dated and it may vary by state, but the “I want to go to uni” track had a two-year requirement of a foreign language. When I was in school, French and Spanish were the only choices and most people wanted to study Spanish. My school system had German as well at some point, but it was cut before I got into highschool in the mid '90s. Some schools have Latin, Japanese, and others as well.
Here in the upper mid west a lot of schools teach Spanish. Not at a you can speak level usually. Similar to how a lot of people learn biology and forget it all when they graduate.
In my state there was some reason they wanted us all to take a second language (I think it was some scholarship we would qualify for our something?) and I always thought the reason most schools had Spanish was because finding a teacher certificated to teach Spanish was more common than other languages. And both of mine were just Midwest white dudes.
the short answer is colonization. the US school system admires the Castilian language more because they have a shared history with the Spanish empire of using European languages to commit cultural genocide against the indigenous peoples of America
It makes zero sense.
The indigenous people didn’t talk in Mexican Spanish.
I didn’t say they did. Spanish versions from Latin America are still marginalized though because the indigenous peoples heavily influenced the language and the vocabulary, etc. that’s why Spaniards get judgemental when they “correct” Latine people because they view their language as inferior and grammatically incorrect
I have never seen a Spaniard correct anyone from Latin America or thinking their language is less correct.
For your knowledge Spain itself have a lot of dialects in the Peninsula, all of which sound different. And Latin American dialects are influenced by Southern Spain dialects as most colonizers were from there. In the Canary Islands and in some parts of Andalusia they also use “ustedes” as second person, for instance.
I think you just made some scenarios in your head to be angry or something.
Most “”““conflict””“” between Spain and Latin America languages I’ve seen is the never ending jokes about who has better dubbing for foreign movies or shows.
I just made up the genocide Spain committed in the Americas? lol ok buddy
You may want to reread the question as your answer makes zero sense.
which part don’t you understand? maybe I can explain
Mainly it’s because not a single human being in Mesoamérica spoke any form of Spanish before, uh, the Spaniards turned-up. (And began committing their genocide)
The question was asking why Castilian was taught, as opposed to any other dialect/form of Spanish that is spoken in geographically proximous states to the US.
Here in Canada we learn Parisian French in school despite Quebecois French being one of our national languages.
It’s probably because, like BBC/Oxford English, those are the places that have an “official” version of the language they try to preserve. Same thing happens with Portugese, despite Brazilian Portugese being more commonly spoken than Portugal Portugese.
I don’t know what we you’re referring to, but in the part of central Ontario where my nephew attends school, the French immersion schools are most definitely teaching Quebecois French.
I tried speaking real French with my nephew and he reacted as if I was a space alien.
And in Switzerland we have to learn quebeccan French. And so the circle closes.
(we train it at the end when we train understanding non-standard pronounciations)
When I was in school in the 1970s it was because they couldn’t get French teachers from Quebec. The youth wanted to stay and build a sovereign Quebec. So they imported French teachers from France and I speak like a French Duke.
because the school system is controlled by old people and they don’t know the difference. in my high school we had Spanish teachers that were actually from Mexico and south America and they taught us useful Spanish.
I think there is a European bias and maybe a (perceived?) prestige bias to Castilian as well.
yeah, especially with the older generation (who should not legally be allowed to be administrators, if you are old enough that your brain doesn’t work anymore you can’t be trusted with authority) on top of their lack of understanding about the difference.
So would ASL, yet here we are.
The education system is for schooling, not learning.
Do they? Duolingo, meanwhile, teaches a Latin American dialect (possibly Mexican), with “ustedes” as the second-person plural. (IIRC, their Portuguese is also Brazilian, which is a greater leap.)
Does it? My partner has learned some very strange words I have never heard used in mexico. But I guess the rest of Latin America also uses different dialects.
I learned Cuban Spanish. Upon going to Spain, I was told I spoke with the English vocabulary and accent equivalent to a southern yokel from the 1970s.
So would ASL, yet here we are.
The education system is for schooling, not learning.
We learned American Spanish when I was in school, no vosotros, no soft S, because we learned it from Cuban teachers. My kids got a mix but mostly, as you are saying, Spain Spanish. I think part of the reason is that Spain Spanish is one thing - canonical Spanish, yes? But in the Americas it’s varied, different in the US from Mexico, from Colombia, from Argentina, Costa Rica. Dialects.
I think it’s silly to say that Spain Spanish is canonical, though. Like, says who? Spanish people? Spanish in Spain is a dialect just like any other Spanish-speaking country. Imo it makes sense to teach the dialect that learners are most likely to encounter based on their geographic location, with context about the other dialects.
We have several dialects in Spain that talk different. We all write proper neutral Spanish though, determined by the Royal Spanish Academy, RAE.
Same thing with Basque, in the tiny territory we occupy there’s a dialect per fucking town almost with distinct differences. Textbooks teach the official neutral Basque though. We would literally not be able to communicate if there was no neutral dialect everyone also knows…
Saying “country dialect” sounds very USA American tbh…
TIL there are two versions of spanish.
There’s uh, lots more than 2. It’s similar to how there’s English English and Nigerian English, just dialectical differences - some more major than others.
Or American English and maybe southern American English? Not sure thats different enough to count.
Depending on how diverged they are people can communicate between them with various words or phrases that are different.
Ex. Americans use the word toilet, England uses loo (which might also refer to the whole bathroom? I’m sure someone from England will correct me)
Toilet can mean the whole room if separate (i.e. no shower or bath) or just the appliance, depending on context. Can use loo to mean what Americans would refer to as ‘bsthroom’/‘restroom’.
There’s far more than two, just like there’s plenty of dialects of english jaja
A lot more than two. Even within Latin America, there are some fairly interesting differences in grammar, vocab, and pronunciation.
