I have a 16-year-old son. I’m in my early 30s (had him very young) and a professional footballer. My son also dreams of becoming a successful footballer (he’s been playing since he was 6), but he’s just… not great. He’s good, but not great - and in this extremely competitive industry you need to be at least great in order to even stand a chance. So I told him, as someone who’s been doing this for a very, very long time & is active in this sphere, that he should find another, more attainable dream. He took it as me not believing in him, but I’m just objective and realistic.
The kid is growing up in a World on fire. People his age are screwed.
Let him do what he wants & just support him.
Yes, you’re gatekeeping his dream
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at 9 my mother called me stupid and that I wouldn’t go far unless I tried harder
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at 12 a teacher told me that I wouldn’t amount to much because I was a loser
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at 15 my father gave up on me and stopped trying to teach me anything and just yelled at me everyday calling me worthless
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at 20 I left home and moved in with a batshit crazy girl, became homeless on my 21st bday.
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I moved back home. got called a failure, a lot.
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got another job. they trained me. they supported me.
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met a girl, she believed in me, supported me
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moved out together, went to college.
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got a degree, and a job
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got married, had kids
I now make six figures. own a large house. very successful, mostly happy(state of the world concerns me).
I tell you this as someone who has been told “the truth”.
To a kid, what their parents think of them means everything. they see you as the example, not only, but a hero as well.
what you just did broke the image they had of you. you’re not the hero anymore. you’re just like every other obstacle they see every single day.
as a parent you must support your child, but you can be creative with it. share their hobby with them, start a new one with them, talk to them about what their backup plans. use your own life experience to help guide them to a decision of their own.
brutal honesty gets you two things
- ignored
- resented
apologize to your kid. you want to share some brutal honesty with them? share how big of a fucking moron you are with them. share how hard you try to be a good loving parent but still make mistakes.
be vulnerable with your child, because you stripped away their armor and now they feel vulnerable around you.
only then can you move past this and help guide them to where they want to be.
This is a life at stake. Don’t tell this guy to be a pushover to spare a feeling. It’s way WAY worse to fuck a whole life thinking you’ve got a career that your parents know something about when you DONT.
This is a shitty, entitled take. Some people are good at some things. Some are good at others. Don’t gaslight your kid to think he’s an astronaut and let the world teach a lesson. That makes you a SHIT parent.
You know who makes 6 figures? A fucking lot of people. Cool, good on you, you’re not a unicorn.
Life at stake?
Eh no, not knowing that you should have a backup plan if you want to do stuff like football is far from ruining a whole life.
Let’s say that they figure out that football is a no go at 25 or something ridiculous like that, what happens? Nothing. They can just do something else, they can even study and get some good education if they want. Switching careers isn’t impossible like you make it out to be. Hell, depending on where you live you might even get paid by the government to get a better education.
Let the kid do football but encourage them to do other stuff too (like getting a good education).
I see we’re using the big dictionary today. words like gaslight and astronaut. I bet you were even excited to use the word unicorn.
feel like you cut me down a few notches? put me in my place, did you?
got news for you, you’re going to need to try a lot harder than that to cut me down.
your attempt was pathetic tbh. 20 years of mental abuse killed something inside me that makes people like you weak and forgettable.
I found my strength, can you say the same?
Guy says to not tear down people. Then tears down people.
what a shitty take.
I shared a part of myself to the community. then got called shitty and entitled.
fuck you, dick.
I didn’t have this life trajectory, but I have another experience and don’t really agree with this. My parents have always been loving and supporting of me. They saw me majoring in science and encouraged me. Once or twice my dad told me he thought I’d be a good audio engineer, but I never really took him seriously.
Well I probably wasn’t cut out to be a STEM worker, or at least I haven’t figured it out yet and I’m getting pretty old. Just working dead end jobs and being too anxious to try for better jobs.
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I listened to my dad a little better, or if anyone had been able to tell me while I was struggling in my stem classes, that maybe I was aiming at the wrong thing, and to keep looking…
There’s no way your dad could have known what was going to happen. There’s no way people around you could have known that you were in a career path that wasn’t going to work out well for you. Nobody can guarantee the future like that.
The other thing is that even if you’re working in STEM, to follow up with your example, there are thousands of different jobs that all feel totally different to people working them. It’s quite possible that you could initially hate the field, then make some lateral shift, and find a position that is halfway decent. Here again, nobody knows what’s going to be good for you.
If you want responsible career advice, it’s quite simple. Because there aren’t guarantees, you might want to develop several different skill sets, so that you’re in a better position to deal with unknown future changes. If you think you can learn how to do one simple thing and then have 45 years of happiness doing it, flip a coin and hope luck is on your side.
speaking as a parent this is one of my worst fears. I want to help support my kids in whatever drives them. I know though, at some point that my kids will make their own decisions that have their own life changing repercussions. the best I can do is impart my own wisdom on them early to allow them to make better decisions when that time comes.
I’ll impart some of my own worldly knowledge on you if you don’t mind. You’re never too old to do what you want to do. it won’t be easy, but nothing that makes your life better ever is. I was in my 30s once I turned my life around. I’ll never be where I wanted to be, but I’m a lot further than I would have been had I never tried. find what you’re good at and drives you and don’t ever be ashamed of wherever that leads you. to thine own self be true.
I’m sorry that you didn’t get the support you needed, but as an adult remember, our parents are only human and make mistakes too. this doesn’t mean what they did was acceptable, but rather allows you to acknowledge the actions and move on from them.
I accepted my father some years after his death, and have acknowledged my mother’s shortcomings. what has driven me to that point is my own failings as a parent. I realized that I was making the same mistakes they were just by trying to not become them. my goal as a parent was literally “don’t be like mom or dad”. now, my goal is “be the dad my kids need”.
They don’t always get what they want, but I’m always willing to listen if it’s important enough to them. I love my kids, would do anything for them if it’s in their self-interest. I hope they look back as adults and realize that so they don’t have to waste years on battling the same demons I had.
thanks for sharing.
I’m sorry, but the irony of not becoming an audio engineer because you didn’t listen is really something.
Hehe that is pretty funny thanks for that :p
Generalized animosity from a parent to their child is the not the same as seeing a niche interest that most likely won’t work out based on facts.
You’re giving survivorship bias for two completely different situations. He’s not telling his kid he can’t do anything. He’s being very specific, and that specific thing is also already very difficult to obtain for anybody, let alone those with great skills.
And you’re saying the lessons from one thing aren’t directly applicable to the other when they are. It’s like saying no one who was ever physically abused as a child can ever talk about why hitting a child is bad because they’re just giving survivorship bias for two completely different situations. The lack of belief still hurts whether it’s an isolated incident or a pattern, and OP needs to know that.
You’re right, I am saying it’s not directly applicable.
You can use parts of it to make an example, but that’s not what they did. They basically said you’ve ruined the relationship because that’s what they experienced their whole like till they met their partner.
unfortunately I didn’t mean for it to be read that way.
from ages 9-20 I was in a world where I was berated and called a failure because I was never shown how to apply myself. their form of “tough love” and “brutal honesty” only alienated me further from success.
they never once taught me HOW to apply myself and only pushed me deeper into a hole where I truly believed it was impossible for me to apply myself because I was “just a failure anyway”.
Once I received the support on how I could apply myself successfully, I was able to discern a path forward for myself and my future. when I met my gf at the time she was truly remarkable and supported me more than I could ever imagine. she’s the one who talked me into going to college.
unsolicited “brutal honesty” is akin to emotional and verbal abuse in my opinion because, to the victim, it is indiscernible. the outcome is the same, damage to motivations and a remodeling of perceptions of a foundationally important character in your life.
I loved my mother unconditionally until I was 9. when she called me stupid, I have no remembrance of what it was over, nor what transpired after. All I remember is realizing that the bond and love we shared(so I thought) was circumstantial and based on how intelligent I was in her eyes.
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If your asking, you probably already know the answer.
Maybe you could have said something like “A top player needs to know math, because they’ve got to do a lot of investing. they should have otehr languages, because they’ll be playing all over the world. Science and computers because…”
Roy Kent here.
He’s here, he’s there, he’s every-fucking-where, Roy Kent!
Years ago I met Bernard King a guy who was capable of shutting down Michael Jordan in college and in the NBA for a bit. King blew out his ACL and had addiction issues. When I asked him if he had advice for a 21 year old kid it was “make sure you get a degree because even if you make it to the big leagues you might not stay and you’ll need that education”. Your advice isnt terribly different.
IMO, maybe a jerk, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I think more people need to hear news they don’t want to hear from someone they trust.
What I’ve told most teens looking at the future post high school is, have more then one career/life goal. When I was in middle school, I thought I wanted to be a professional chef. Only to discover I like cooking. I love cooking for friends/family… I loathed the toxic “professional” setting (especially thanks to Gordan Ramsey, who 20 years ago glamorized being a right jackass in the kitchen, pretending that was acceptable). Now I’ve worked in IT for nearly 2 decades and what I’ve done in my field has changed a lot.
I think lying to him and saying, “You can be anything, you can do anything, you’re amazing!!!” type of parenting is going to lead to problems if/when the plan doesn’t work out and they have no fallback. Personally, coddling your kid and lying to them just because it’s a short-term positive emotion (or you’re afraid of saying the truth), IMO is bad parenting. You’re not there to make sure they get the “right feels” or to be their best friend. You prepare them for the real world. Final note: you hear a lot of professional sports players say “I had a deal with my parents that if <sport> didn’t work out, I’d do <something else>.”
Was he asking you directly if you thought he could make pro? Then no, I think your honest opinion is the right answer.
If this was just unsolicited parental advice then yes, jerky thing to say. He will figure it out soon enough, right? 16 is when recruiters start looking and if he doesn’t get attention then he should know, I don’t think it’s the kind of thing you have to point out.
My kid who was a good - not - great athlete leveraged it for a good high school career and a scholarship to help with college, and an alright college sports career, there’s no reason to squash him down, if he enjoys the sport it can still be good for his life.
Since you are a professional who has happened to make it with some level of success, you know firsthand that there are a lot of excellent people who didn’t manage it for one reason or another. (And it’s not always because of lack of talent, they might have just gotten the wrong injury). How did they manage things when they finally came to terms with the fact they wouldn’t make a living doing that? What did they have to fall back on? Are they coaching? Teaching? Selling real estate or insurance?
There is nothing wrong with him chasing his dream, but make sure he has an alternative planned. Make him talk to some of those people, and find his own path. Don’t focus on whether or not he has the talent to make it, but on the fact that even people with all the talent sometimes don’t make it, through no fault of their own. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
Depends on when they came to terms with it. The ones who did early on (like if my son did now) just did a 180° easily and moved onto something else. Those who did later on either did a 180° as well, teaching or coaching (this is a tricky one as great coaches / managers tend to be former pro players themselves - it’s a bit harder to breakthrough here).
16 is not too old to not learn to be much better.
By 16 you should have an idea if you have a chance at all. I was all state in my sport at 15. I knew by my junior year I wasn’t going to be competing in college because the skills just were not there. Most kids who have a chance to go pro know way before 16.
For professional football, I think it is too late.
You are not a jerk IMO! But I believe you should have done it somehow different, like tell him to try other things in case football career does not work out for him, or to always think about another career.
and of course what others already said.You’re literally a professional and your first thought isn’t to use your own skills to coach him to get better?
All industries that pay well are competitive.
Who said I haven’t? I said he’s been playing since he was 6. At a pro football club, with coaches and all + obviously my help. That’s the nurture part. The nature part also has to be good though.
Who said I haven’t?
Well you didn’t say either way in your initial post. How are people who read it supposed to just know you’ve already nurtured it? It doesn’t come off that way from the way it’s written, just so you know.
If it doesn’t say either way, you also shouldn’t assume and make such a strongly worded comment. This post doesn’t give me a clue in either direction, just so you know.
You should have known that there was nothing to gain by telling him what you did. Kids that age are smart enough to realize that if they aren’t being selected to the local all-star team, it’s because they’re not an all-star. If they go to football camp and they aren’t one of the best people at the camp, they’ll realize that they’re not very likely to go pro. But you decided to make it your business at a time when you didn’t need to, and that makes you a jerk.
You said that you’re just being objective and realistic, right, but you decided to tell your son your opinion, and not someone else. If you were actually trying to be objective, you would have told everyone on the team what you thought about their potential. Of course that would be really rude, which is the point.
What you could have done is what many other people have mentioned in the comments. Something about how there’s no guarantee that anyone can make it pro, or how long they’ll last if they do, because random injuries can end your career, and the median length of a professional footballer isn’t very long anyway, so there’s still the rest of life to live.
When you punish a person for dreaming his dream, don’t expect him to thank our forgive you.
He’s right, you don’t believe in him, and if he’s not great at football even though he’s living with a pro, that shows me how little you value him. He could be great but what are you doing to help him get there besides crushing his dreams?
If you want to salvage this relationship at all you need to apologize and do everything you can to support him. Training, encouragement, the works.
It’s better that he tries to achieve his dream and have to do something else than to have it crushed out of him by his own father.
if he’s not great at football even though he’s living with a pro, that shows me how little you value him.
Some people simple don’t have the ability to be good at some things, no matter how hard they work at it, no matter who mentors them. Very, very few people have the ability to be a Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart regardless of what kind of mentorship they have.
Let me give you a concrete example.
I’ve had a major shoulder surgery after tearing the shit out of my supraspinatus and the labrum. The supraspinatus passes through the acromium process on the scapula. The acromium process has roughly three different shapes, which are largely determined by genetics. A type I acromium process is smooth, and allows the spuraspinatus to pass through easily. Type II and type III acromium processes have pronounced ‘hook’ shapes–type III significantly more so–that make injury to the supraspinatus much more probable. I have a type II acromium process. Had Mary Lou Retton been my mother and coach, and I’d tried to be a gymnast, I would have destroyed both of my shoulders long before I was ever going to be going to nation-level events; the limits of the shape of my scapula would have made success impossible, given that a strong and stable shoulder is required in gymnastics, regardless of sex/gender. I would likewise be unable to be a competitive powerlifter, for much the same reason; working up to a nationally competitive snatch would have also destroyed my shoulders. (And, in point of fact, it was working on push-presses that killed it.)
People are not a tabula rasa, only needing the proper encouragement to become paragons in a given field.
You are suffering from several fallacies.
- “Unless you can be the best, it’s not worth trying”
Fortunately, the world doesn’t operate this way. There are people who are mediocre, and sometimes poor, at playing football professionally or other professions. Your line of thinking would lead to only one person playing football at a time, the person who is the best at it, and everyone else should give up.
- “Meritocracy is real and the only determining factor of success”
While meritocracy is a nice thought, that the best inevitably rise to the top, it’s not necessarily true. Just as there’s circumstances that keep talent from succeeding, like financial background, biases against people, and luck, those things also can lift up the less talented. There’s many celebrities that aren’t as talented at acting as someone stuck in a small town.
- “I trust OP’s assessment”
As far as you know, op could be wrong. Maybe the kid plays great and OP is too critical, you don’t know. This could be a critical mistake on OP’s end, and making the kid give up doesn’t help regardless.
- “hard work doesn’t mean success, innate ability is the only thing that matters”
If this were true, no one would need to practice anything. You said Mozart succeeded because of his mentoring, but then argue for people having lack of natural talent leading to failure.
- “my back story is relevant”
It was also tempting to throw in the argument of verbosity. But your shoulder injury, or that some people are incapable of physically doing things, isn’t relevant. The kid is physically capable of playing football. It’s a false equivalence.
- “the kid will have the same level of ability at 16 forever”
You presume that this kid will only have the ability he is at, and that even with training, won’t get better. This ties into your belief in natural talent a bit, but it’s still pretty foolish to assume professional football players play at the level they did at 16, so it’s also foolish to assume that 16 is where this kid will peak.
- “the kid achieving the dream is the most important thing here”
This is where you missed the the bigger picture. There’s more on the line than just success at football, there’s a whole relationship at stake, and a kid’s mental and emotional health.
So that all said, look at it this way. There’s four scenarios that could’ve taken place, with four factors. Kid gets encouraged, let’s shorthand that to E. Kid gets discouraged, D. Kid succeeds at professional football, S. Kid fails at professional football, F.
ES is obviously the best. Kid gets support, becomes professional football player, everyone’s happy.
EF is disappointing, but salvageable. The kid gets the attitude of not giving up and at least Dad has his back. Maybe he tries something else after not making the cut, and has a great career at something he’s able to do, but at least he tried. He’s not going to be able to try forever, but he can at least try something new with a solid foundation.
DS is a tragic hero. Kid gets there but doesn’t have a great relationship with Dad. Success is tainted by bitterness, and every win is to prove Dad wrong. Doesn’t have a great relationship with Dad, and probably has a lasting issue because of it.
DF is the worst possible outcome, and at this point it’s the most likely. Kid has an even worse issue with Dad, dreams are crushed, and he grows up bitter and resentful. He’s taught to not try for anything he’s interested in, and lives a life of miserable mediocrity.
It’s my opinion that it’s better for parents to encourage their children in their dreams, because the success rate is probably higher and at the very least they get the support they need to try something different. It’s almost never a great idea to discourage a child because that leads to resentment and lethargy.
You aren’t saving anyone by telling them to give up. That’s a decision they should make on their own. This is even more true for a child who is still developing who they are and how they see the world.
You’re making a ton of straw-man arguments.
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You don’t have to be the best. You do have to be good enough to get scouted by a professional team if your goal is to play professionally. I never at any point said that it wasn’t worth playing if you couldn’t be the best or do it professionally. I spend a lot of time shooting competitively; it’s likely that I will never make Master or Grandmaster in anything, and as a result I’m never going to be sponsored or be able to earn a living at it. (…Not that the money is very good anyways.) So what? I still have fun.
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In sports, playing professionally is a meritocracy. Socioeconomic class matters insofar as having more wealth and privilege means that you’ll have access to better training prior to becoming a professional. But the child in question already has access to training, through a parent that plays professionally. But that’s all the farther that socioeconomic class gets you in sports. People from poorer backgrounds often get to go far in sports, if they have the skill.
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Yes, OP could be wrong. On the other hand, OP is claiming to be a professional in the field, and is therefore more likely to have an informed opinion.
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Success is a combination of directed effort, an inherent capability; it’s not one or the other. If you lack certain inherent capabilities, then all the directed effort in the world won’t get you where you want to be. You can have all the gifts to achieve greatness in a given field, and yet fail completely if you don’t carefully direct your ability in that area.
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See above. The kid already has access to top-tier training, and is not making the grade necessary to perform at a professional level. Ergo, the part that is lacking is capability. …Which is why my anecdote is relevant; it’s not my unwillingness to work my ass off that has limited my power lifting aspirations, it’s my physical capabilities. (And yes, I really did work at power lifting. And will again once my shoulder finished healing, even though I’m never going to be competitive at any level.)
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Of course the kid isn’t going to be at the same level forever. But he’s not on track to be at a level where he’s capable of playing professionally. A 16yo that’s capable of going pro–esp. when they have access to high-level training–would be expected to be performing at a certain level. According to OP, he isn’t. The probability is that, while he will continue to improve (up until age catches up with him), he is not going to be at a professional level in time to make a career of it.
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You’re drawing a false dichotomy between being honest/realistic with your children, and having a relationship with them. I’m gathering, from what you’re saying, that you don’t believe that the parent should give their child a realistic assessment of their performance, and should simply be encouraging; it that correct? It seem like you believe that putting all of your effort into a goal, and failing to achieve that goal would not cause deep bitterness on its own; am I reading that correctly?
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“It’s my opinion that it’s better for parents to encourage their children in their dreams […]” I partially disagree. I think that parents need to encourage children to set realistic goals in life, and goals that can be stretch goals. Maybe that looks like going to school to become a biologist, and going on to medical school if biology ends up being fairly easy for them. Maybe that looks like going into a trade if they’re good at working with their hands. Playing professional sports–or being a touring musician that makes enough to live on, etc.–is like winning a jackpot in the lottery. Sure, you gotta play in order to win, but for every person that wins there’s millions of people that don’t. I would hope that you would say that anyone planning for retirement by buying lottery tickets was a fool, even if that person was your child. But even so, you can play sport for fun.
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This is incredibly bad advice
How? You’re saying it’s better to tell your kid their dreams suck and they shouldn’t try? What a great parenting strategy.
If he doesn’t have what it takes, and he keeps encouraging him to go for that anyway, then he’d be encouraging his son to live in a fantasy world until he gets mowed down by the real one. That would not be a favor to his son. It would be a failure in his duty to prepare him for adult life.
Depends where you live. In America? Yes you’re a jerk because you are questioning the American “dream”. Anywhere else? As long as you explain why and support your kid in whatever choice he/she makes you’re fine.
