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Meetings are the viable alternative to work. Meetings that you don’t need to contribute to are even better. Take a break. Catch some zees.
That’s how I look at it. You want to pay me to go to a meeting that could’ve been an email? Ok! Bet!
What if you enjoy your work and find value in it; and the meeting is pointless bullshit that just breaks your focus?
Do whatever you want, mate. Decline the meeting?
I think OP’s screenshot is tactful and effective. It’s similar to my approach. Which starts:
“Thanks for the invitation, what’s on the agenda?”
Then I decide to accept or politely decline and ask for minutes.
Someone after my own heart.
yeah what the fuck; when you’re asked to do nothing on company time, you take it!
This is all well and good as long as you’re not that one person who has to actually generate deliverables.
I used to work at this company where like 3 guys took care of basically everything. All but one of them, let’s call him Rob, eventually left to better companies. About a month after that, my team had to deal with a pretty big issue and we were having trouble coming up with a solution so this idiot had the brilliant idea to page Rob. As if the poor guy hadn’t spent the last month doing the job of 3 people who were already doing the job of a 5 people each. Rob got online, said “Why did you page me?” and immediately left before getting a response. I liked Rob.
The original way the first person asked was polite, if intoned gently.
The recommended response is corpospeak.
Corpospeak is never polite.
It just pretends to be.
Like a sociopath.
Corpospeak […] Like a sociopath.
And this is why LLMs are so well suited for the task! People get genuinely excited by the prospect of using AI to read/reply email… because they don’t mean actual thoughtful email written with intent, maybe even emotions or even reasoning. No… no they mean corpospeak that is entirely pointless, empty of meaning and definitely written for a human by human, but rather for a cog, to another lifeless cog in the corporation.
This is why people are investing tons of money and expending tons of CO2.
What a fucking farce of a species we are.
All things considered our species is doing relatively well. Having the ability to assign purpose and use tools does cause us to get stuck in a stupid rut all too often, though.
I can’t fathom why a person would willingly use corpospeak. I can’t imagine anyone actually likes to speak that way.
I would invite the reader to always call it out when it occurs, and call for all involved parties to speak plain.
Bullshit corpospeak tasks is pretty much the only time I use LLMs. You want us to come up with a paragraph long department motto? Could someone ask ChatGPT and put all of our names under it so none of us waste time from our lives on such a retarded task.
Nah, fuck this lickspittle corpo speak!
“What is the purpose of this meeting and why do I need to be included?” is a perfectly polite sentence appropriate in any work environment consisting of mature and distinguished adults.
Do not enslave yourself to the machine, because the people running it will treat you like a slave.
consisting of mature and distinguished adults
That part can actually be problematic in many places in my experience.
That is absolutely not something to say if the meeting is pulled together by management on high. Peers? Sure you can say stuff like that, but to someone you may not know or have little interaction with that can be a death knell for your reputation.
The trick is to be so reliable that no one would conceive of getting rid of you even if you come off a little assholish sometimes. I started on the help desk at my last job (fairly large company with around ~25k employees and within a year or two I was the go to for a few of the c-levels when they had issues. I pissed off middle management types occasionally when I couldn’t do something they wanted right away because I needed more information or whatever and had to wait on something. Anytime they tried to start shit with me it never took long for a bigger fish to get involved and have my back because they were familiar with my work and knew I wasn’t just fucking around.
“What is the purpose of this meeting and why do I need to be included” is a perfectly polite series of words to use. The wording matters far less than the tone of voice.
I vastly prefer clear and direct questions over the reply that sounds passive aggressive from the very beginning.
I wouldn’t say “perfectly” polite, but it’s definitely not offensive.
The response in the OP definitely doesn’t need further tonal clarification, though. It’s tough for anyone to classify that response as hostile.
I think you underestimate how thin the skin of the professional managerial class is. It’s not about the tone of voice it’s about the directness and how that’s facilitating “conflict”.
I do understand and it does not matter how you phrase it for those types of people. Pretending that it could have been said the ‘right’ way is a waste of time because, as you said, they consider even asking to be facilitating conflict.
There are also good managers out there, they just aren’t as memorable as the ones who make everything into drama. The good ones also tend to be driven to other jobs because of the jerk managers…
Don’t find that’s true at all. Direct language is much preferred to this bullshit.
When I started my career I quickly became convinced that meetings are the opposite of work. Now a large part of my career is hosting meetings. 😬
My biggest piece of advice to junior staff is: if you’re not provided an agenda prior to a meeting, your attendance is not required. RSVP with Yes if it sounds interesting/beneficial and you have the time, otherwise Nope (or Tentative) your way out of it.
The obvious caveat is if that meeting is called by someone with role power over you. In which case: as they clearly don’t respect your time, it’s on you to (politely) ask them to provide an agenda. It may also indirectly train them to be less shit.
When I started my career I quickly became convinced that meetings are the opposite of work. Now a large part of my career is hosting meetings. 😬
I feel/felt similarly but I am now calling for meetings because it seems to be the easiest way to get my peers and superiors to do their fucking job so that I’m not stuck in limbo waiting for their parts to be finished. It seems like they only respond to slack mentions / emails / task assignments at random which leaves important, unanswered requests/questions just sitting there.
Sorry, this past year I’ve been working with another department for a project that, due to aforementioned woes, has run about 6-12 months more than it needs to.
I’m in the public sector and everyone is very busy and pulled in many directions so I kind of get it… but I want to be done with this thing.
Also in the public sector and when I started, project managers were required to include everyone under the sun for pointless update meetings every two weeks for the PM to read out the reports everyone gave them so nobody missed anything. By the time they were done everyone wanted to bail, including me. They were meetings that could be an email, and if there were issues then additional meetings were scheduled.
Over time I have been promoted up through PM and now get to define the best practices for projects including meetings. My meetings are productive and people actually want to show up as they are discussions where work might be canceled or put off so people don’t get overloaded. I make sure everyone is included without putting anyone on the spot. The departments we work with to create web apps like us more since we started giving reasons for saying no instead of working devs to death in overtime because PMs were not allowed to say no.
I do have one project that is an albatross I can’t kill because of the sunk cost fallacy, but at least it is one small project that gets raised every few months to get put on the backburner while the largest and most complex project is now running smoothly. Other PMs have also improved their interactions when they were given examples in how to more clearly communicate their challenges, although a few don’t want to give up the ‘do everything asked’ approach.
We have also had 5 developers who left for the private sector come back over the last 10 years because of the work culture. The grass wasn’t greener, but they did come back with new skills and a better appreciation for the improved communication and overtime is almost entirely voluntary!
You don’t need to set meetings. You need to set deadlines.
I’ve tried deadlines. I’ve asked for things to be done before our next meeting with the vendor we’re working with. Hell, almost everything I need done is clearly conveyed as “I cannot proceed to move your project forward until you perform X task that I don’t have the rights to perform or make a decision regarding your department’s policy on X.” In fact, I’ve shown up at the meetings with them and the vendor and literally told them the situation - they do everything that’s piled up in like 5-10 minutes and are apologetic. Then two days later I need another small thing and it begins again. So now I call for a meeting to “go over the project days the next vendor meeting.” I really just have a list of shit I can’t work on for the next vendor meeting because ya’ll don’t respond to all my requests otherwise.
Also remember, some of these are directed at my superiors - like the boss of the department I’m working with. It’s their project so it’s not like I’m getting in trouble or missing my deadlines. It just murders my flow state and frustrates me to no end when it can take days or weeks to get a response.
Ah, so you’ve been given responsibility without power (renumeration).
Just noped out of my last job cos the new manager was randomly calling me without a heads up to understand what the next steps are. Aka asking me and the other team member to do his work for him. I see highly competent people struggling to find jobs and guys like this in F500 companies — and can’t help but wonder what’s wrong with selection.
Meeting host here too Agenda : defective thingamajig from supplier
- agenda Hello everu one we suspect that some mcguffins have been shipped with defectives turbo-encubalators. We have 24h to decide if we need to informed government agency
Inventory people - please identify origine of the turbo-encubalators and deliveries Engineers -please make risk assessment form, we strongly suspect defective product are in service.
Providing agenda is only useful if people fucking read it and inform themselves on the subject before coming in. Hi everybody why am I here? - you were supposed to evaluate the safety risk for customer using this defective component we discovered. - oh Why me? -you are the engineer that designed the part Can’t the supplier do the investigation, I have to make a report to my boss to identify where we can cut support
Agreed.
I didn’t mention that I also spend time after every meeting I host putting together a summary of what was discussed along with a bullet point list of deliverables, who agreed to work on them, and due dates and then send it to all attendees, invitees, and stakeholders.
It deals with the Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man meme problem and “magnanimous work dodgers” - those who promise the world in meetings but then seemingly disappear off the planet.
It probably should be noted that many of the meetings I host are recurring, often weekly or fortnightly, so it’s easy to find a rhythm (and identify the problem children).
I work on the floor in a pretty specialized role, so I can always just use the excuse of having to attend to any given machine coincidentally whenever they want to have a meeting I don’t feel like attending.
None of the managers really understand what we do, so they don’t challenge the excuses ever.
You’d be promoted to ‘hated manager’ soon
No way! Manglement isn’t part of the union :P
Such corpo bullshit, do it the Scandinavian way, I don’t think this meeting is for me, have a good meeting though. Done and done
Don’t you want to empower the business and yourself by attending the meetings here? Why complicate the process by excluding yourself from the conversation.
Even saying that made me feel sick.
‘Do you really need me? I still have a lot on my desk and would like to get to work on it, if you don’t mind.’
Never did anyone have an issue with that, including my boss.
The beauty of this is its not using brainrot LinkedIn language
Fluent in corporate speech 101.
Seriously is there a class I can take, because it’s like I’m speaking an alternate language at work and no one there understands what I’m saying
You are asking the wrong dude here. I failed at corporate speech, never understood their art of assimilation. It is all about not offending anyone, overstepping, never throwing anyone under the bus, especially higher management, and yet dodging bullets coming your way. It is also the biggest waste of time, usually. Got to give the upper management, the glorified babysitters, something to do.
I honestly can’t agree with you more
Fluent companyspeech
It’s just being highly effective at applying peer to peer team interaction synergistics skills.
I told my team to decline meetings they don’t think they should be in. If they’re really needed, they can be added - everyone is supposed to be available/reachable during the day anyway. I told them that this includes meetings that I invite them to.
Had a manager saying that. Declined meeting. Manager: Pikachu-face.
Had to attend anyways ofc. Wasted my time 100% + the time the manager “explained” why I couldn’t just decline a meeting.
Yeah, that’s not cool at all. Gotta mean it if you’re gonna say it.
You don’t really want to tell your boss “I don’t add value!”.
If you are hired to sit at meetings, not adding value to them is indeed a very severe issue.
Eh, useless meetings are great for timesheet filler while playing Pokemon Go.
Sometimes my wife says she doesn’t like so much downtime at work. I understand her frustration, but I don’t empathize.
Pay me to slack off, that’s the life.
When I first started my job, I was really anxious about being seen as “slacking off” whenever there was downtime (which is pretty frequent and can range from 10 minutes to two hours). That made it pretty exhausting, which in turn fed the anxiety because “how can doing nothing wear you out?”
Luckily my colleagues and leads were great people and helped me get more comfortable with it, and I’m really grateful for that.
Yeah, I have a lot of droughts of work. But also, my job is babysitting a little data center. If I don’t have things to do, its technically a good thing because it means everything is working right.
I also get a lot of praise from management for how great I am at my job, ahich feela really weird sometimes because I have had weeks where I basically did nothing. Hell in December we have a lot work freezes so nothing breaks and all the routine work for the year is done so sometimes jts an entire month of basically nothing.
I often spend the time learning new stuff so thats kind of work related.
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Talk to your manager.
Shortly after I was hired, my manager told me I should feel free to decline any meeting that didn’t seem useful, or that if it was preventing me from getting “real” work done.
Or just ask the person organizing the meeting.
“I saw you added me to a meeting tomorrow. Can you provide a bit of context so I can come prepared?”
