I am noticing a rise in Holocaust denial with the rising anti-Zionism coming out of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Many of these YouTubers, tiktokers, and podcasters point to the writings of David Irving as proof. I know he is a holocaust denier and an idiot, but I would like to read it so I could point out the exact flaws in Irving’s “evidence” and stop getting the comment “You haven’t even read it!”. I also don’t want to send a penny to this author, but also don’t want to break the law in getting access to it.
How would you go about this situation?
Just get the torrent
My man, try Z-Library. Check the subreddit for the latest working URL’s that won’t get you doxxed.
Piracy, maybe see if Internet archive has any of his writings. I would just try to find a source where I didn’t have to pay for it.
Library.
You can wheels within wheels this shit for eternity. Answer this question and you’ll have the answer. What do you want to do? Do that.
You can steal it, buy it, borrow it, whatever. Ultimately there is no objective right answer. If you think you’ll be better equipped to counter argue the message by reading it, I say that’s more honorable than arguing against it without knowing what it is.
Check if it’s available at a library?
If you borrow it from the library the author typically gets a little compensation
read it there
“Pssst look at what that guy is reading!”
Where? They don’t in the US.
Europe.
go to a library and borrow it?
Dunno how it works where you are, but I (author) get money from library books. Much less than when a reader buys it (duh), but it pays for nice Christmas presents.
Not at local library
Furthermore, since it’s very likely that this author is not going to make really complex points, you could just go to the library, skim through it for an hour or two, and take notes on the two or three points worth quoting. (Or go all old-school and make photocopies of a few pages…). This way there is no record of your use of this book anywhere
I utilize Libby and local libraries but it’s not available.
Do most public libraries have holocaust denial works?
In the UK, certainly. It’s not the library’s job to censor what the borrowers want to read, even if it’s David Icke.
In Australia too. I was in Gatton, Queensland, at their Library, and they had signs up warning people to basically go pound sand, the library is not a censorship authority, and that they will not remove books based on “religious morals”, in the LGBT pride section, and a similar sign, lacking the morals bit in some of their conspiracy theory books. And Gold Coast Libraries stocks some of the weirdest conspiracy theory mags in the planet.
highly doubt it, but i’ve seen some similar cases…
i would just pirate tbh
Some do, and inter-library loans are a thing.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Just live your life
Anyone with enough money to influence society already has enough money to influence society. Given them another $3 doesn’t make you complicit
If they have problematic views but aren’t pushing them on society… Well, no one is perfect.
Ultimately, voting with your wallet is a lie. Best sellers aren’t the best books, they’re the ones boosted by publishers and public figures. Just like the record industry - there’s people who are literally choosing the winners and losers
What’s the ultimate ethical implication of using ketchup at McDonald’s vs buying a dipping sauce? There certainly is one, tiny as it might be. Use that energy to do good things, you’ll make a far greater difference calling a senator than buying a lifetime of books
Or just sidestep it all and pirate it or check it out at a library
“Everything sucks so do nothing” is exactly how evil stays in power.
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying live your life and save your energy for where it would actually make a difference
Collective action works, voting with your wallet is a way to make people think they don’t need to organize
Well my attitude is
You can do that…I mean consuming less is great
But only one of these things meaningfully helps fix systematic problems, but they both make you feel like you’re doing something meaningful
I bought a book about communism yesterday off of Amazon.
Cool? That sounded like it was meant as a rebuttal, but that’s my whole argument.
You can’t live a truly moral life under capitalism, but you can fight to change the system while living in the system. There’s no hypocracy in that, suggesting otherwise is just a mid-wit talking point
Now, if we got together and organized a boycott against Amazon and you broke it, that would be a different story
People you disagree with may still produce something of value to you.
People who spread disinformation and conspiracy theories should profit as little as possible from it
Download a book? Illegally? Online? Through a popular torrent website?
I would never do such an illegal and terrible thing!!
That method is horrible because the author wouldn’t make any money off of it.
I heard there’s this Anna, keeping an archive of those horrible books.
Yeah that would be bad. I think we can agree that if there’s one thing that’s even more important than the ideology of an author, it’s definitely capitalism, which is conveniently not an ideology at all, just one of the fundamental laws of the universe. That’s why it’s important to not pirate things for ideological reasons.
You could just buy the book second-hand. Authors don’t get any of that money, and you’ll be able to get it for much cheaper than new.
Do you have to agree with everyone you give your money to? What sort of economy would that be?
Buy the book on the premise that you want access to the content he spent energy and time to produce. Just like you’d pay to get access to any kind of content that you want to consume because it is the fair thing to do.
Or get it at the library like everyone else said.
Pirating it is not ethical of course, but furthermore it becomes hypocritical and intellectually dishonest if you would criticize some else for pirating content produced by any other author.
I don’t think people expect that you have to agree with everyone you give money to, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to try to avoid sending money to a Holocaust denier specifically for his Holocaust denial
But the OP wants access to that content. It doesn’t matter what the content is, what matters is someone wrote it and they are entitled to payment from those who want to consume it.
Alternatively they could just not read it or ask the people they are debating to send them a copy if they possess one.
I think the question includes a discussion of whether or not that access is worth sending money to the author, right? Like, even if OP completely agrees with your position about the author deserving money for access and also wants access, they may want to both avoid sending money to the author and to avoid stealing it more. Of course you mentioned the possibility of finding it in a library and someone else in the thread suggested finding it second hand, which are probably both preferable solutions here if they are practical
I just don’t think there’s any room for debate. You can get it on loan, rent it, buy it secondhand or buy it new. Anything else would be unethical.
That’s fine, that just means the ethical question is now “is accessing it in one of those ways worth the consequences of doing so?” You might well say yes or, as others in these comments have, argue that the consequences are negligible. You might say no. It’s still a relevant debate in the topic OP is asking about even if we completely accept your position about which ways of getting access are ethical
I have some big news for you about libraries and second hand book stores.
Do you have to agree with everyone you give your money to? What sort of economy would that be?
Probably a pretty nice one, actually.
Yeah isolating yourself from everyone you disagree with is awesome, truly nothing bad ever comes out of it.
I am fine with isolating myself from evil.
Ergo we should feel obligated to give money to people who we believe are actively harming the world?
You are not obligated to read the book.
You should feel obligated to nothing except to remunerate people fairly for their work if you want it.
Sure, I am obviously not obligated to read the book, but what I was specifically responding to was the following remark:
Yeah isolating yourself from everyone you disagree with is awesome, truly nothing bad ever comes out of it.
which in turn was a response to the following:
Do you have to agree with everyone you give your money to? What sort of economy would that be?
Probably a pretty nice one, actually.
I do try. I actively boycott shitty companies (for 30 years and counting) and my list is long and swollen.
If more people took action on their principles our systems would be a lot less shitty.
Just because you can’t boycott everything doesn’t mean you should do nothing.
Legally, you could buy a used copy if you could find one.
Just break the law lol. The law is made up horseshit 😆
I think people overthink spending money on things they don’t support. I think stealing it is justified, but If you’re doing academic studies or learning how to deprogram people, go ahead and buy a Nazi’s book if you have to.
That said, if you’re looking to argue with Holocaust deniers, trying to defeat them by studying their arguments is a classic blunder.
Conspiratorial thinking is rooted in social maladies, and attachment to a theory is a downstream effect. You can no more talk a Holocaust denier out of their belief with evidence than you can fix a broken water main by sand-bagging the street. If you’re trying to deprogram someone, you’ve got to learn how to get them to open up about the background experiences that led them to look for these answers and then usually find ways to help them find alternate communities that obviate their need for the conspiracy in a way that at least feels self-directed.
It’s a much slower process, but if that’s what you want to do, read up on that and don’t bother wasting money on Irving’s book.
