The phenomenon of sovereign citizens persistently trying to win court cases with their principles, despite a lack of success, is indeed puzzling. On YouTube alone, there are around 5,000 videos showing sovereign citizens facing defeat in the courtroom. These individuals often make claims that have yet to prove successful and frequently end up incarcerated.
Why do people continue to adopt this seemingly futile approach? It’s akin to watching 5,000 parachutists attempt a failed jump from the Eiffel Tower, only for newcomers to keep trying despite knowing, or perhaps ignoring, the inevitable outcome. Despite the growing pile of mangled bodies at the base of the tower, every day people decide to climb up and try for themselves.
The dedication of these individuals is noteworthy; they invest a great deal of time mastering the intricacies of their “sovereign” defense. Yet, it seems that they dedicate little time to researching previous legal outcomes or understanding why their arguments haven’t held up in court historically.
What drives this persistence? Is it a deep-seated belief system that overrides rational analysis, or is there another factor at play that encourages them to keep going despite overwhelming evidence of failure?
If you didn’t reason your way into a problem you aren’t likely to reason your way out of it
To start, it’s a large scale demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They obviously understand very little about the law, if anything, but they think they understand one loophole and the sense of understanding breeds confidence. When you understand nothing, the feeling that you now understand something can be a powerful one.
Follow that up with a conspiracy-theorist’s mindset and it starts to make more sense. The SovCit thinks they understand this loophole, but that They don’t want to allow it. Who are They? Pick one. The Deep State, Corporate Elites, Rogue Judges, whoever it is that the SovCit feels has the power and will to ignore the rules just to personally thwart that SovCit’s stunningly clever application of the law. Now, their case isn’t failing because literally everything they thought they understood about the law is wrong, it’s because that Judge is willfully ignoring the law in an abuse of power specifically intended to put a stop to this. It’s not that the SovCit was wrong to think their signature on legal documents was meaningless because they wrote “Rights Reserved” beside it, the Deep State just doesn’t want people to know that’s how you avoid consequences!
Finally, wrap it all up with mythical “experts” and a self propagating network. One person trying all that shit alone might realize they don’t actually know what they’re doing, but they’ll select their contacts to surround themselves with people who will reassure them that if the first letter of the name on that legal document is capitalized it actually means a shadow-account created at birth and not the biological person. They’ll get support to help them overcome their doubts, fed by rumors of a friend of a friend who totally got it to work, or someone who got away with a warning on a traffic stop because they didn’t recognize the cop’s jurisdiction, or a friend’s cousin who has been using a fake “Private” license plate for months and has never been puled over. None of these experts materialize and provide solid, actionable information in a crisis, but the rumors and support are enough to keep any doubts at bay.
i have a good friend who does this. he truly believes these are ancient documented loopholes in the law that he is exploiting. he calls himself a lawyer and he represents himself in court.
he’s an honest and legitimately good person, and the things he’s been trying to do are backed by good intentions. he’s a retired veteran, and an activist for progressive social causes. unfortunately he’s in prison now.
Another “sovcit victory”
The state asserts its sovereignty and backs up the claim with the consensus of the people and a lot of guns.
A sovereign citizen makes the same claim but fails to convince or compel others to agree.
They very well might believe in some god-given authority but that’s not how any of this works.
But maybe an SC will uncover a deeply hidden loophole someday and win an argument. The law affords them the opportunity to try.
Because they’re too dumb to realize how dumb they are.
I was gonna say “Dunning-Krugers gonna Dunning-Kruger.”
https://youtu.be/OC375rujZhs but in bullshit legal magic mumbo jumbo form.
It’s the same way people will believe conspiracy theories or trust homeopathic remedies despite all the evidence against them. The world is complicated. Sometimes people think the simple solution must be the correct one, but that’s not really the truth.
Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that. - Carlin
The dedication of these individuals is noteworthy… What drives this persistence? Is it a deep-seated belief system that overrides rational analysis
It’s a lovely little combo of desperation and digging themselves into a hole. Most of the elements of sovereign citizens come from people who are not in good situations, as outlined by the canadian court’s very thorough opinion (which has already been linked twice in this thread, so I won’t bother it again). Once you’re in it, the same situation occurs that you can see with people in cults, mlm companies, or ponzi schemes. Maybe if you keep going, and pushing through the pain right now, you’ll get that mythical payoff. The alternative is to face the fact that you’ve likely ruined your life, rendering impossible whatever you hoped to achieve in the legal system in the first place.
An interesting addendum to your question: this is not a exclusively US based phenomenon. In Germany there are the Reichsbürgers they have similar ideas.
They think legally the state has no claim to rule and most people just don’t know they still live in the German Reich still.
So they have their own king selling them passports and they have pretty aggressive group think to try and enforce their claims.
My wife’s dad is one of them. The main thing I recognize comes from a pathological need to know better than everybody else. It’s very tightly coupled to their sense of worth and identity. They are better than everybody else because they have seen the light.
Pretty culty behavior and just enough pseudo truth to keep simple minds saying “yeah there might be something there”. Like “vaccination causes autism, they just don’t want you to know”.
Makes a loser in societies eyes, but a superhuman in their eyes. And yes, they still run into a wall and just keep trying to adjust their angle to hit that sacred sweet spot. Because now they need to prove how they are better and as they already have sacrificed so much they can’t be wrong to continue. (Just like a gambler who already lost a lot.)
So it’s a few psychological dynamics that grip into each other like gears and that ratchet them ever so tightly to their belief until there is no turning back.
I think it’s low level mental illness or some yet to be diagnosed mental condition. I don’t think it manifests itself strictly in Sov Cit folks. Think of those people who go full Don Quixote over some perceived wrong wrought onto them. They dig themselves in to fight something ridiculous and impossible to win -for they have no case- and spend their lives dedicated to it, never giving up or letting it go. The Sov Cit dudes at least have each other to commiserate.
Yeah this is some kind of specific oppositional defiance disorder
This was my dad but thankfully he had ADHD, so he’d forget to hold a grudge after a day or two.
Still, it was annoying that every single minor inconvenience was this great injustice made to torture specifically him. He definitely was a narcissist with a healthy dose of main character syndrome thrown in for good measure.
If they were reasonable or intelligent they wouldn’t be what they are in the first place.
It’s funny because the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS work for cops.
Speeding? You mean traveling in a conveyance.
Assault and battery? You mean protecting and serving.
Deprivation of rights, kidnapping, and false imprisonment? You see, your honor, I didn’t know about any of that stuff so it shouldn’t apply to me.
In conclusion, the only “sovereign citizens” in this country are the bitches in blue.
Police have special powers according to the law, so no, the same arguments don’t work.
They REALLY don’t. They have very situational allowances that have become defacto “special powers” thanks to a combination of decades of copaganda and huckster “warrior programs” that teach wannabe bullies that they are the most important of gods special snowflakes whose only responsibility is saving their own ass.
Check out the guy that got stabbed in the face repeatedly on an NY subway while cops watched from 10 feet away, behind a safety door meant to protect the train conductor. Took them to court because their motto was literally “protect and serve” and got a real live judge to say out loud that it wasn’t literal and cops have no duty to actually protect or serve anyone, legally.
They REALLY do. What you call “situational allowances” are what we’re talking about. You can’t turn on some flashing lights and speed through red lights to get to a crime legally. They can.
Police have special powers that the rest of us don’t have. If they didn’t then police wouldn’t even exist.
The problem I’m talking about is when they speed through red lights because they think they have these “special powers” when they law is EXCRUCIATINGLY explicit on exactly when and why cops can sometimes disregard certain legal requirements. That does not mean they can do what they want when they want. That’s exactly the kind of people OP is talking about, and that’s cops. To a fuckin T. Nobody else goes to court, cries ignorance as an excuse, and expects to get away with it.
My real problem is that it works for them. Qualified immunity is a disgrace to law, as is the absolute immunity enjoyed by judges and magistrates. You want to fix law, fix that first.
Ok so your issue is that police abuse their powers, powers that regular citizens do not have. I agree that’s a huge problem and it should be addressed regularly.
That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand though. Sovereign citizens live in la-la-land. There are no special hidden laws about “travelling vs driving” where you don’t need a drivers license to drive on public roads. There are laws that allow police to speed and go through red lights.
Are you right in the fucking head??
In conclusion, the only sovcits in this country are the bitches in blue
So, you are saying there are no sovereign citizens in the world? Oh I wish, as someone in a country full of them. Google the Wiembilla shootings, read about the people who commited them.
Man you must have tried hard not to understand his point that you missed it this badly.
Because our president shows that once in 248 years, someone who continuously flouts the law somehow makes it into power, then changes everything to be in their favor, permanently.
They believe that the right amount of good spells recited in the correct order will grant them victory. Unfortunately they’ve studied a different magic book than most people, so their magic does not work on others.
