If you toss an apple it will fall. If you become a fascist/conservative you have to die. This is how things work
saluto romano
Oh, pretty easily explainable. I was thinking something else
This is what happens when a country that was part of the axis and commited many atrocities gets no consequences for it. Germany was split up, the eastern axis were screwed by becoming part of the soviet block, japan got demilitarised and controlled by the US.
BUT Italy just got to get off almost scoff free.
Not really. The far right is winning across the West right now. Countries which were not facists like the US, UK and France have very strong far right movements as well as countries which got occupied like Germany, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, which had fascists governments.
Fascisim is a problem of capitalism collapsing. Capitalism naturally moves money from the poor to the rich. So governments need to fight that. So low growth should naturally lead to the left gaining ground, as they want to do exactly that. However the capitalist fight it and they need to find an alternative enemy, hence fascism.
Capitalism naturally moves money from the poor to the rich. So governments need to fight that. So low growth should naturally lead to the left gaining ground, as they want to do exactly that. However the capitalist fight it and they need to find an alternative enemy, hence fascism.
that’s part of the problem but not everything.
You’re underestimating the number of people who look at the mainstream culture from 2000-2020 and say “hey, they’re trying to take our way of life away, trying to replace us with immigrants, trying to declare our way of life criminal and illegal”. That causes a huge backlash.
But yeah, economic questions are also very important. Naturally, the left should become pretty strong around now by campaigning on taxing the rich and implementing a universal basic income. It’s very sad and unfortunate that the left don’t get their shit together and effectively campaign on these issues.
So low growth should naturally lead to the left gaining ground
Wrong, the extreme-right trick of blaming a scapegoat for all their problems, “the jews” pre-WW2 and “immigrants” now works.
An easy target, the rich and industrial forces pulling the strings behind the curtain are much less visible.
I watched The Fall of Civilizations podcast a few months ago on the Mongols and Genghis Kahn.
Genghis Kahn, realized, once he united the the Mongol people, he wouldn’t be able to hold them united without an enemy. He realized he needed an enemy and began the conquest.
I just wish for once the “enemy” could be an abstract, like hunger and poverty instead of our fellow man. Just once.
I just wish for once the “enemy” could be an abstract, like hunger and poverty instead of our fellow man. Just once.
(outer) “space” is considered the final frontier
Yes but support for fascism and similar ideas has been stronger in Italy for much longer.
And yet AfD is almost leading in the polls Germany, AUR is leading by far in Romania, Hungary has Orban and Slovakia has Fico. They never learn. Or rather they always forget.
Yes but these have risen in recent years and were on the fringes before. Italy is a different story.
US controlled Italy as well. In Italy there was essentially a civil war, which is how fascism got defeated, with the resistance cooperating with the Allies, and a government and constitution being established as a result.
The problem with Italy is not about punishment, is cultural. Italy never collectively reflected and moved on from the fascist past. Maybe there is some good discussion about the relationship between this and being a catholic country.
I was reading, lightly reading, some book I found on the archive from 1971 that was attempting to discuss Italy just post the black plague. It read they loved fudalism/fascism in those years.
These problems are ancient, just with new ways of implementation. Not claiming to know a lot about it
I know what happened with the civil war and that.
I still believe fascism has not been moved past precisely because rhey suffered no consequences for being fascist.
It could be argued that the same is true of the American civil war.
Half the country supported fascism, either directly or through inaction, what do you do…? Demilitarization would be of no help here, so what are the options? It is a cultural process that needs to cause a collective reflection to move on. What “punishment” would have worked in your opinion?
Something like germany and austria. Lose any territories with significant amount of other nationalities like the east of germany going to Poland.
They could have lost south Tyrol and they should have lost Trieste.
This would have not have changed anything in terms of not being reconciled with and have elaborated the fascist past. You would have had exactly the same situation today, just with different borders.
“Germany was split up” indeed.
The western side had no consequences for it, on the contrary, they rehabilitated the nazis and kept them in positions of power.
On the Soviet side they got their deserved reward. What you call ‘screwed’? Japan still had a lot of fascists and extreme-right to this day, even leading the country.By the eastern axis I meant Hungary Romania and Bulgaria. Japan got nuked but had it alright after since it was under the US.
They were booming and becoming a world power, the reason why the US wanted war with them.
I wouldn’t call getting nuked, having to rebuild their infrastructure and economy from zero , and now as a vasal state to the US “had it alright” either.Alright was maybe an overstatement. Definitely way better than having to be under the USSR umbrella.
no
Lmao, you should search how many Japanese was punished by their crimes in Nanking massacre, the Japanese fascists are still in power
USA did absolutely nothing about that
I am not sure if you include that in “split up” but Germany lost a lot of (pre-war) territory.
I do. Italy lost barely any territory. Not counting colonies in this.
Lot of German top Nazis got promoted to high ranking positions in West-Germany too.
Nuremberg was a sham trial.
I’ve keep seeing folks in here say the evil weren’t held accountable before, and so this must be why it repeats.
I think even if every soul who perpetrated this evil, was uh, held accountable, I wonder, if these problems would still arise again, I don’t think it would have made a difference, I think it will repeat. Power over others is a hell of a drug
I am not talking about every soul, I am talking about the top ranking military Nazi officers directly responsible for the Holocaust and many other war crimes.
You want to hear something funny? The countries most supportive of the genocide in Gaza are the ones which employed the majority of Nazi officers after the Holocaust.
benitos grandaughter works in the far right group in italy.
Oh yeah and she’s on Twitter as well, which lead to this amazing moment
I could’ve sworn she was in Lega. She’s in Forza Italia, center-right, an EPP member in the EU Parliament
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Woulda been more believable if you made it black and white
Like this?
This is from January.
I don’t know much about Italy, but the Years of Lead and the collapse of the Communist Party there (at least, in name) probably contributed to a weakened left and a strengthened right, but IDK. I just read some stuff about it, maybe I’m wrong.
Europe, and Italy in particular, is much closer to fascism that many people know or are willing to admit.
Acca Larenzia is not the problem, it’s more of a symptom of deep deep ignorance and widespread poverty that pushes people to fight back. These are poor, disturbed, ignorant people misguided by the telly.
Same in the US and UK, though it might be less TV and more social media, podcasts and YouTube at this point.
The root problem is inequality, which is why the US tipped first.
Italians when two neo-fascist are killed in the 70s… Nazi salutes every year for decades.
Italians when neo-fascist kill 17 innocent people in the 70s… Silence.
Always crazy how much projection the right can dredge up when it comes to political violence.
Fuck sake. I’ve been planning to retire to Italy for over 20 years now. Nice little place near the sea with an olive tree. Walking distance to the town to have the banter with the lads over some coffee and wine.
Fucking cunting Nazis ruining everything.
There are a few idiots everywhere. Italy is a great country with great people, so there is no reason why you wouldn’t retire there.
They’re everywhere :(
WHY!?! I feel like that rick and morty episode
This stuff has been happening all the time over decades. It’s a few hundreds idiots who put up clown shows. It’s nothing new, really.
One thing I know about Italians is that … they are always a proud people who are always about themselves
It’s not hard to sway the population as long as you promote the idea of nationalism, racism and identity - Italy for Italians and no one else.
It’s the same format they have for America … except it’s harder to do in America because they always have to admit to a historic multicultural background.
It’s often easier in Italy which has a very long, historic, proud and well documented monocultural past. (Yes, yes, I know … Italy also has a multicultural past, but to most modern Italians, most average Italians like to believe that they have a monocultural past)
Monocultural past? Italy is not a single country even today. People 200km apart can’t understand each other if they would speak their local language. People hate each other even within the same region (e.g., Pisa vs Livorno). There is quite a lot of hate and discrimination even between South and North, between cities (Naples/Milan/Rome), especially due to internal migrations (many people go from South to Rome to study, or north to work).
One of the major parties (today) rebranded as a nationalist party just recently, but is still called “north league” and was a secessionist party until 10 years ago or so (probably still is to some extent).
Everyone in Italy is absolutely aware of local culture and differences, and Italians have a very vague idea of what Italy is as a country. The national identity is really weird, and often people feel more part of their local heritage than Italian (e.g., Sicilian or roman).
Also dunking on Italy is basically a national sport, almost everyone in Italy is convinced that abroad “things work, not like here”. However, people get protective when an outgroup criticizes Italy, that’s when you get a “nationalist” perspective. This is quite common for many groups though.
I would say the centuries of fragmentation of the Italian peninsula actually bolstered the nationalist spirit more than in countries with a long history as a unified nation (England, France, Spain…) and much literature taught at school treats this topic.
But yeah history doesn’t teach shit, it looks like…
I’m not Italian but I have several Italian Canadian friends.
I just had this conversation with an older Italian Canadian friend of mine … she’s first generation Canadian and her parents were from northern Italy in the Veneto region. She told me a story about how she went back to visit relatives of hers years ago. They called her Canadian but didn’t call her Italian. They said you have to be born in Italy as an Italian with an Italian family and grow up in the language and the culture in order to call yourself Italian. Anything else and you weren’t Italian.
I am Italian from a nearby place to Veneto: can confirm that there is an obnoxious cultural protectionism that’s appalling. In general people are very friendly and kind, but so close minded… I only grew out of it (I think?) once I moved abroad. It’s bittersweet, because it’s nice to be proud of being part of a community, but at the same time there is much emptiness in thinking of oneselves as something special just for what’s on the passport.
The funny part was that she traveled to Italy alone from Canada … her Italian relatives scolded her and said that is definitely not something an Italian woman should do. If they were Italian at all.
Looks like we’re going to have to stomp out some fascists again. Twice in one century.
Just reverting to type.
Get all the pizzas out, add them pineapple, then torch the place.
