You know, DOGE, fascist president and corporations dictating what people can do, institutions being ruined, laws being ignored. Is there any way out of that or is it over? Is the USA done?

  • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Not even close to being done. Right now the biggest changes are a reduction in non law enforcement/immigration government staff and contracts being paid out. The biggest thing coming down the pipeline is Trump clearly wants to free himself of the courts and congress. But it’s far too early to say he’s won that. And even that wouldn’t be the end of things. In the US the states have a lot of autonomy. They are actually the ones responsible for holding elections. So let’s look at a worst case scenario, where he tries to say we shouldn’t have elections.

    The first thing that’s going to happen is all the blue states are going to tell him to fuck off and hold them anyways. The second thing that’s going to happen is some red states will also do so, although they’ll likely be less coarse with the language. Then a few more red states will be pressured into having elections by massive protests of people angry they can’t vote anymore. Then while Trump is having a fit because there’s no real way for him to stop this process, we get to learn about a fun feature of the US Congress. There is no law requiring it to meet in D.C. Trump would likely try to claim whatever is left over is the real congress, but without having been elected the Constitution is clear that those states forfeit representation until they hold an election.

    So we’d be left with a House that is majority anti-Trump, after all, he tried to make them irrelevant at best. In the Senate we’d likely be looking at something of an even split in 2026. There’s probably 5-7ish red states that would hold elections anyways and combined with the blue states and senate democrats leaving DC they would be able to convene elsewhere with a majority to declare rules of the Senate without Trump’s interference. The new Congress would likely swiftly vote to impeach Trump. The remnants of the old one would protest this but they don’t have any legal power. Only the backing of Trump and propaganda power.

    This leaves Vance with a choice. This would be by design because our democratic party leaders only appear to be stupid when convenient. Vance can throw his weight behind Trump and get impeached himself or he can order Trump removed from the White House thus acknowledging the primacy of Congress. If he chooses the first option then Congress simply repeats the process and the presidency goes to the next person in line, the speaker of the house. Yes, Congress can effectively vote one of it’s own members into the White House at any time. This president then declares an emergency and orders the military to secure DC. The military loves process, and loves the Constitution. It is highly likely this order would be followed.

    However all would not be well, it’s not a fairy tale. It would likely be the start of an American Insurgency that would take decades to root out. It would certainly be the end of the US as the hegemonic world power. Our Aircraft Carriers would rust in port and our projection of soft and hard power over the world would wither. But we would still be here, just much diminished and never the same in our lifetimes. This is certainly scary but if we all do our part this is as close as we would come to losing our democracy. Far more insidious is the threat of slowly revoking the right to vote. They’d start by raising the age, then by requiring you to not have any debt of specific kinds, then by making harsh punishments for illegally voting, and other such things until voting is effectively restricted to land owners. Certain factions would like to get it to white christian male landowners but that’s probably a decade or more down that line if at all.

    Notes -

    Why wouldn’t he just send in the military?

    2028 isn’t enough time to purge and train enough people to make the military loyal to him. He would be mid project on that at best and the states could effectively counter him into a stand still with their national guard. This would make many people stay home, but the determined voters are likely to be anti-trump because that’s the change incentive. Loyalists will feel like the elections don’t matter.

    What’s stopping SCOTUS from declaring the elections invalid?

    The states. SCOTUS is only relevant as long as they have reputation of being an impartial arbiter of Constitutional Law. That opinion is already in the trash heap. They could not make such a decision today, or after 4 more years unless they spend the next 4 years setting themselves as at least a mild opposition in a long game. But they haven’t shown that kind of patience.

    What happens in Trump surrounds himself with thousands of armed loyalists in DC?

    We select a new capital and wish him the best of luck dealing with DC. There is no law requiring DC be the Capital. The Constitution doesn’t even require the states to give up a district, it only provides the legal possibility. There’s no need to engage in that kind of a conflict. Such a group would be arrested bit by bit by Maryland, Virginia, and Federal authorities until it could be resolved swiftly.

    • Coil@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      I really only lurk on Lemmy, but I felt the need to comment. Thank you for writing this. I’ve been stressed out since the EO was announced. I felt like we were doomed, but this gives me some hope. Even if this doesn’t happen, I feel better knowing there is still a way to possibly course correct.

  • Kaboom@reddthat.com
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    1 month ago

    No. In fact it’s opposite. Doge is a good thing. Trump is not an actual fascist despite claims to the contrary, wasteful institutions are being curtailed, laws are being enforced.

    The only real issue is that journalists are a bunch of rage baiting hacks, and y’all eat up it like it’s Thanksgiving dinner.

    The only thing I’m actually worried about is when the Democrats take back power, if they’ll turn into tyrants. But I don’t think that’s particularly likely either.

  • Swordgeek@lemmy.ca
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    1 month ago

    Yes.

    The amount of harm already done to your country by Trump and Musk is immeasurable, and will take a generation or more to recover from.

    The amount of harm done to your standing in the world is equally bad. The world was skeptical after Trump’s first term fucked over the rest of the world, but we were hopeful that maybe the US had learned their lesson?

    Nope. They elected a fascist. They RE-elected a known fascist, felon, rapist, idiot-child, psychopath. Worse, they bolstered Musk to get into a seat of unauthorized and unimaginable power.

    When Trump announced his idiotic tarrifs, Canada collectively said “that’s it - we’re divorcing.” When he pulled back on the idea for 30 days, Canada said “don’t care, still divorcing.”

    Trump is following the exact model of Hitler, and it’s only a matter of time until he actually invades either Greenland or Canada if he’s not stopped. The USA has to collapse into ruin and rebuild from scratch before anyone is going to trust them again.

    • pohart@programming.dev
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      1 month ago

      A generation seems very generous. The only path back to US hegemony I see is Fascism: we’ve burned our bridges and I don’t think the world will be willing to work with us for a long time. But I don’t even think the current batch are interested in US hegemony.

      • Triasha@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Military power and wealth have an irrisisatable pull. China can still make deals and do diplomacy. Even North Korea can cut deals with Russia. Russia and Iran work together. One nations pariah state is anothers opportunity.

        The rest of the world will hedge their bets, but if the US negotiators start talking sense again after the trump admin they will attend the meetings and make agreements hoping for the best. International law people live and breathe the hypocrisy of tyrants and democrats alike.

        The optimism of the 1990s is dead, but that was a lie even then. The US reputation as the “leader of the free world” is dead. It was a self appointed title anyway.

        The world will keep spinning and deals will still be made by non idiots.

        If the predictions in this thread of a hot civil war in the US prove true, then deals will be made with whatever comes out of that.

        I hope not, but I am not optimistic about the next few years/decades

  • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    In the short term, yes.

    If trump remains in office after this term, absolutely yes.

    If we get a different admin - not just another republicrat trump clone - they’re going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time fixing all of trump’s fuckups. One of which should be restricting any wannabe monarch’s ability to rule by decree in the US. So yeah, we’re fucked, and we’re gonna have to spend a lot of effort getting unfucked, digging ourselves out of an oligarchy hole, instead of moving forward from a continually advancing starting point.

    E: allies are already turning away from us, politically and economically. They’ll form new alliances and relationships that the US doesn’t get to be a part of, or at least won’t get a leading position in. Same with things like soft power from international aid. China will step in, maybe the EU or even Russia. We lose the goodwill, stability, and any economic “ins” we could have achieved with that soft power. We’re fucked in lots of ways.

    • superkret@feddit.org
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      1 month ago

      During my lifetime, the view people have of the US has completely changed.
      It used to be “When I grow up, I want to move there.” and “Oh, you went to the US on vacation? AWESOME”.
      Now it’s “Why the fuck would you go there, are you stupid?”

  • sunbytes@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Screwed is always relative.

    I’m hearing chat that immigrants from places like Turkey or India are going “oh yeah this is what it’s like back home”.

    So it’s possible it just goes full neoliberal (i.e. no consequences or regulations for the rich) and the division of wealth grows even further.

    Provided he doesn’t cause a war or some kind of other mass-death problem (chemical spills, reactor meltdown etc) it might just have a cost primarily in human suffering, as opposed to human life.