I just believe that wanting widespread use while being against simplification/abstraction is an incompatible view.

And I believe people should be able/willing to learn if they want to adopt a new system, especially one that allows so much freedom the standardization you seek is antithetical to it’s entire ethos. Just by the existence of both KDE and GNOME you’re already “abstracting” things and making it “more difficult” than “you will suck Microsoft’s one DE and like it,” and that’s just two of the DEs to choose, you’d rather there only be GNOME “because it’s simpler and will help new people learn?” Well too bad, I like KDE and I like that you’re free to choose GNOME. “Thinking people should switch from X to Y is incompatible unless you make Y as much like X as possible,” isn’t it, we’re saying “X is bad, Y is better, try doing things Y’s way.” Making X like Y isn’t “doing it Y’s way,” it’s just windows with extra steps.

That’s true, but not all learning is equal.

And not all people learn the same way, you need the pretty pictures, some don’t.

whether you’re in Japan or in the US, you know a trashcan is somewhere you discard stuff,

Sure, but beyond the trash icon, if you have to compress a file (or do like 99% of things including switch system languages), using the GUI doesn’t help if your computer is stuck in Japanese. C’mon dude, Kanji is random symbols regardless of if you’re in GUI or CLI, absoLUTELY not independant of language, even Romanji you’d be fucked and you know it.

(or whoever ykwim)

(or whoever ykwim)

And my experience was mildly negative,

Read: it isn’t for me

most of my friends prefer Linux

Read: It’s me not linux

People love learning and are constantly seeking new things to learn

some

People just would rather learn out of passion than necessity.

Well tbh, welcome to the real world, sometimes you “need” to learn some shit. And if you decide you “need” control over your laptop and to break the shackles of Microsoft without spending $45000 to trade Microsoft’s spyware for apple’s, then you “need” to learn how to use Linux or BSD, because short of TempleOS that’s all that’s left. Sucks bro, is what it is.

For a lot of people the computer is nothing more than a medium to do what they want,

Most people never touch anything bigger than their phone outside of work. Let em. If they want freedom they can always choose to learn, they can, they just don’t want to.

they don’t care about how it works, nor do they want to learn

Hey that’s my line. And they barely need to know “how it works,” they don’t know “how windows works,” half of them don’t even know what the registry is even if they’ve used CMD before (looks an awful lot like CLI now that we’re mentioning it, and gParted, the GNOME GUI tool, works a lot better than diskpart I’ll tell you what) yet they use it just fine. They just need to be able to get by, same as purty-gui’d windows.

Btw, it’s fine if Linux just stays being a niche OS for programmers and tech enthusiasts,

Hell it isn’t if you’re not scared, I know rednecks in trailers and grandmas that use it.

I just find it annoying how every time people point out that Linux and its communities can be newb unfriendly

That’s fair, I bet they are unfriendly when you show up saying “linux sucks I don’t want to learn make it work” which I for some reason feel probably describes you fairly well. They were always nice to me (short of literally one user on c/linux.ml, chef_koch, but he was banned 4y ago), probably because I was approaching it with a better attitude and a willingness to learn rather than animosity, but who knows.

No the newbs are just too lazy

Some are, you are. I was never told that as a noob showing a willingness to learn. Perhaps this problem is not divorced from “you.” “If you meet 5 assholes in a day, maybe you’re the asshole.”

Lastly, I just like to point out that in this thread OP said GUI are more intuitive, to which you…

And plenty of people learn to garden. Gardening isn’t for everyone. Stick to your iphone.

Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem. It’s been so long since I used windows now (last was w10, not like 98, still been a few years) that now I find windows harder to use than linux cli, even with its fancy schmansy GUI. I’ve never used apple or iPhone, so I know fuck all about macOS and the few times I’ve had to touch an iPhone I literally say “ugh what the fuck is this thing, hey [friend, iPhone owner], can you make this thing do the youtube for me,” but that’s because I’m too lazy to learn the UI (because I don’t want to, because walled garden so I only use it on those rare occasions and would never buy one, but I digress), “learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.” You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you (of course Microsoft will hide the control panel you’re used to and make you learn a new gui way to change some setting that they keep changing back every update, for instance, but at least it’s incremental I suppose.) But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,” it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.

I also barely have to touch the CLI btw (except I choose to all the time because it’s so convenient, but I don’t have to,) I could usually use the GUI, and often do for other things that are more convenient that way. Ymmv.

Actually now that I’m thinking about it btw, being a mechanic is more analogous to working with hardware, like building a gaming rig or something. Learning an OS is more like learning how to operate that hardware. At most, you’re used to automatic, you don’t want to learn how to drive stick, but it’s not that much harder, you can, you just don’t want to.

You need the CLI more on average using linux, but many people can still get by without it. Tbh I thought I’d need it more so I learned the absolute basics it, and then it turned out I only “need” it rarely when I’m trying to do something weird or something that should be working isn’t, but I end up using it all the time because it’s just so convenient! And I learned more as I went along. Then I learned how to write basic scripts to automate stuff I wanted it to do by just chaining some of those commands together in a file, which was even more convenient. Honestly now Windows GUI is more difficult to me, I can’t just type “yo do this shit” I have to click 4000 different things.

But yeah, adobe locks you in to windows anyway, dualboot ftw! Good luck on your journey!

Tbf, of course it is better to understand what those commands do too, but it always starts there! (And maybe a youtube tutorial or two for cd, ls, pwd, history, etc.)

Man that sounds an awful lot like learning, but couldn’t be, because learning is not possible!

Just give up and exclusively use iPhones lol, they’re easier.

And yet you expect me to be able to figure out paella or my soil PH without a GUI? I’m expected to learn what color means what on these test strips and measure ingredients with different sized spoons? This is madness!

I think a good portion of the people complaining have never touched DOS, maybe CMD once or twice with a tutorial online (which sounds a whole lot like some stackexchange user teaching me about bluez, but this is scarier because they were told linux hard.)

If I can’t be expected to remember sudo dnf update -y why would I be able to remember a whole ass recipe, or how to care for plants, or how to change my oil? There’s no GUI to tell me how much nitrogen my soil needs, I can’t be expected to learn anything!

It’s always going to feel like this even if you never need a terminal for one simple reason:

When you google “how to XX on linux,” you’re going to find a stackexchange page where someone else asked, and someone answered with a terminal command instead of “Ok what DE are you using? Ok, so you’re gonna want to click these seventeen different menu options, and I don’t remember them without looking at them myself.” It’s just always going to be easier to send someone a string of ~30char to type than to try and figure out their GUI without screensharing.

They’re real and adorable and they eat ticks and are resistant to rabies. They also eat your trash and can absolutely fight the shit out of you, but I like them.

That is an opossum, they’re just cute!

Those are called “doorbells” now.

So others can’t get out? So others still can’t come in? So we don’t let out all the AC?

Find out next time on: Puzzling Commentary!™

this has been a Desilu presentation.

Free your mind and your ass will follow, the kingdom of heaven is within.

True!

In english (amongst other languages), the letter “u” can be pronounced two ways.

Lol that means something completely different in spanish haha. Spelled puta though.

How is that pu pronounced? Like pew or poo?

Wait you think the only women in the entire game are in this one strip club?