If I can’t be expected to remember sudo dnf update -y why would I be able to remember a whole ass recipe, or how to care for plants, or how to change my oil? There’s no GUI to tell me how much nitrogen my soil needs, I can’t be expected to learn anything!
Because a GUI conveys meaning, because humans are intrinsically better at memorizing shapes and location than some random abstract characters that do not mean anything to then unless you use them all the time. Because a System Settings panel with submenus and descriptions on their checkboxes and sliders is the manual AND the option simultaneously, small “?” with hover-over information boxes make it optimal. A GUI can go so far to turn completely red to signal dangerous settings, the CLI will happily oblige in whatever stupid command you enter. Hell, even god damn APT had NO option to warn users that they’re about to uninstall core system components until a big Youtuber like LTT had his distro blow up in his face. And STILL there were those people who tirelessly argued against a god damn warning… and colored text.
GUI is by design better at guardrailing, meanwhile in the CLI a single wrong command with sudo in front can destroy your entire OS.
I can’t fathom how this isn’t painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about this for even a moment…
And yet you expect me to be able to figure out paella or my soil PH without a GUI? I’m expected to learn what color means what on these test strips and measure ingredients with different sized spoons? This is madness!
You realize most people that dabble at gardening do not in fact know anything about that right?
Most people that dabble in gardening will kill a lot of plants, and when they do try to understand why, they’re not going to pick up a book on gardening to understand how plants work. They will search on the internet why their plant died and try random suggestions (the equivalent of running random commands on Linux) until something works, or failing that, they will more likely move to a hardier plant like a cactus (the equivalent of moving to Windows).
Sure it’s not as beautiful and is prickly, but at least it doesn’t just die.
Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem. It’s been so long since I used windows now (last was w10, not like 98, still been a few years) that now I find windows harder to use than linux cli, even with its fancy schmansy GUI. I’ve never used apple or iPhone, so I know fuck all about macOS and the few times I’ve had to touch an iPhone I literally say “ugh what the fuck is this thing, hey [friend, iPhone owner], can you make this thing do the youtube for me,” but that’s because I’m too lazy to learn the UI (because I don’t want to, because walled garden so I only use it on those rare occasions and would never buy one, but I digress), “learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.” You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you (of course Microsoft will hide the control panel you’re used to and make you learn a new gui way to change some setting that they keep changing back every update, for instance, but at least it’s incremental I suppose.) But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,” it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.
I also barely have to touch the CLI btw (except I choose to all the time because it’s so convenient, but I don’t have to,) I could usually use the GUI, and often do for other things that are more convenient that way. Ymmv.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it btw, being a mechanic is more analogous to working with hardware, like building a gaming rig or something. Learning an OS is more like learning how to operate that hardware. At most, you’re used to automatic, you don’t want to learn how to drive stick, but it’s not that much harder, you can, you just don’t want to.
Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.
I meant more along the lines of knowing the inner workings of a car and how to modify it. But whatever, it was a bad analogy and I won’t defend it.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem.
I don’t think that having to learn how Linux works to use it is a problem per se. I just believe that wanting widespread use while being against simplification/abstraction is an incompatible view.
“learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.”
That’s true, but not all learning is equal. Visual and positional features can make learning things easier by creating mental connections and shortcuts, while computer languages aren’t even processed like real languages.
Moreover, a good GUI should be built with good UX in mind and help the user in the process of learning by creating and taking advantage of existing connections, the same isn’t true in a CLI, at best commands can resemble natural language, which does help, but even that has limits. For example, a GUI’s symbols are independent from language whereas a CLI’s commands aren’t, whether you’re in Japan or in the US, you know a trashcan is somewhere you discard stuff, meanwhile commands might as well be random symbol combinations for people that don’t speak english.
You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you
I’d like to point out that I’ve used Linux in the past for 4 years (I only swapped because I didn’t bother reinstalling Mint after switching PCs. I also didn’t even have problems with the terminal actually, although I did avoid it when possible). And my experience was mildly negative, and I interacted with people that also had negative experiences with their distros (positives too, most of my friends prefer Linux), so it annoys me that when people give feedback on the Linux UX and are met with defensiveness and dismissal of their experiences while simultaneously being told by Linux fans to blindly adopt it.
But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,”
Once again, I’d like to point out that I never argued that.
it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.
I do like to counter this. People love learning and are constantly seeking new things to learn (sometimes that is misinformation, so ymmv). People just would rather learn out of passion than necessity. For a lot of people the computer is nothing more than a medium to do what they want, they don’t care about how it works nor do they want to learn. And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view.
Btw, it’s fine if Linux just stays being a niche OS for programmers and tech enthusiasts, I just find it annoying how every time people point out that Linux and its communities can be newb unfriendly, theyr ar eoften met with: “Am I wrong? No the newbs are just too lazy”.
Lastly, I just like to point out that in this thread OP said GUI are more intuitive, to which you mentioned that gardening doesn’t have GUIs and I pointed out that gardening isn’t intuitive and people bounce off of gardening as a hobby before you launched on a tangent about people not being willing to learn new things.
I just believe that wanting widespread use while being against simplification/abstraction is an incompatible view.
And I believe people should be able/willing to learn if they want to adopt a new system, especially one that allows so much freedom the standardization you seek is antithetical to it’s entire ethos. Just by the existence of both KDE and GNOME you’re already “abstracting” things and making it “more difficult” than “you will suck Microsoft’s one DE and like it,” and that’s just two of the DEs to choose, you’d rather there only be GNOME “because it’s simpler and will help new people learn?” Well too bad, I like KDE and I like that you’re free to choose GNOME. “Thinking people should switch from X to Y is incompatible unless you make Y as much like X as possible,” isn’t it, we’re saying “X is bad, Y is better, try doing things Y’s way.” Making X like Y isn’t “doing it Y’s way,” it’s just windows with extra steps.
That’s true, but not all learning is equal.
And not all people learn the same way, you need the pretty pictures, some don’t.
whether you’re in Japan or in the US, you know a trashcan is somewhere you discard stuff,
Sure, but beyond the trash icon, if you have to compress a file (or do like 99% of things including switch system languages), using the GUI doesn’t help if your computer is stuck in Japanese. C’mon dude, Kanji is random symbols regardless of if you’re in GUI or CLI, absoLUTELY not independant of language, even Romanji you’d be fucked and you know it.
(or whoever ykwim)
(or whoever ykwim)
And my experience was mildly negative,
Read: it isn’t for me
most of my friends prefer Linux
Read: It’s me not linux
People love learning and are constantly seeking new things to learn
some
People just would rather learn out of passion than necessity.
Well tbh, welcome to the real world, sometimes you “need” to learn some shit. And if you decide you “need” control over your laptop and to break the shackles of Microsoft without spending $45000 to trade Microsoft’s spyware for apple’s, then you “need” to learn how to use Linux or BSD, because short of TempleOS that’s all that’s left. Sucks bro, is what it is.
For a lot of people the computer is nothing more than a medium to do what they want,
Most people never touch anything bigger than their phone outside of work. Let em. If they want freedom they can always choose to learn, they can, they just don’t want to.
they don’t care about how it works, nor do they want to learn
Hey that’s my line. And they barely need to know “how it works,” they don’t know “how windows works,” half of them don’t even know what the registry is even if they’ve used CMD before (looks an awful lot like CLI now that we’re mentioning it, and gParted, the GNOME GUI tool, works a lot better than diskpart I’ll tell you what) yet they use it just fine. They just need to be able to get by, same as purty-gui’d windows.
Btw, it’s fine if Linux just stays being a niche OS for programmers and tech enthusiasts,
Hell it isn’t if you’re not scared, I know rednecks in trailers and grandmas that use it.
I just find it annoying how every time people point out that Linux and its communities can be newb unfriendly
That’s fair, I bet they are unfriendly when you show up saying “linux sucks I don’t want to learn make it work” which I for some reason feel probably describes you fairly well. They were always nice to me (short of literally one user on c/linux.ml, chef_koch, but he was banned 4y ago), probably because I was approaching it with a better attitude and a willingness to learn rather than animosity, but who knows.
No the newbs are just too lazy
Some are, you are. I was never told that as a noob showing a willingness to learn. Perhaps this problem is not divorced from “you.” “If you meet 5 assholes in a day, maybe you’re the asshole.”
Lastly, I just like to point out that in this thread OP said GUI are more intuitive, to which you…
And plenty of people learn to garden. Gardening isn’t for everyone. Stick to your iphone.
If I can’t be expected to remember
sudo dnf update -ywhy would I be able to remember a whole ass recipe, or how to care for plants, or how to change my oil? There’s no GUI to tell me how much nitrogen my soil needs, I can’t be expected to learn anything!Because a GUI conveys meaning, because humans are intrinsically better at memorizing shapes and location than some random abstract characters that do not mean anything to then unless you use them all the time. Because a System Settings panel with submenus and descriptions on their checkboxes and sliders is the manual AND the option simultaneously, small “?” with hover-over information boxes make it optimal. A GUI can go so far to turn completely red to signal dangerous settings, the CLI will happily oblige in whatever stupid command you enter. Hell, even god damn APT had NO option to warn users that they’re about to uninstall core system components until a big Youtuber like LTT had his distro blow up in his face. And STILL there were those people who tirelessly argued against a god damn warning… and colored text.
GUI is by design better at guardrailing, meanwhile in the CLI a single wrong command with sudo in front can destroy your entire OS.
I can’t fathom how this isn’t painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about this for even a moment…
And yet you expect me to be able to figure out paella or my soil PH without a GUI? I’m expected to learn what color means what on these test strips and measure ingredients with different sized spoons? This is madness!
You realize most people that dabble at gardening do not in fact know anything about that right?
Most people that dabble in gardening will kill a lot of plants, and when they do try to understand why, they’re not going to pick up a book on gardening to understand how plants work. They will search on the internet why their plant died and try random suggestions (the equivalent of running random commands on Linux) until something works, or failing that, they will more likely move to a hardier plant like a cactus (the equivalent of moving to Windows).
Sure it’s not as beautiful and is prickly, but at least it doesn’t just die.
Man that sounds an awful lot like learning, but couldn’t be, because learning is not possible!
Just give up and exclusively use iPhones lol, they’re easier.
I believe that the people in lemmy are reasonable and kind and good irl. The same I believe of you.
At no point I was aggressive or said learning is impossible. So why do you feel the need to build a scarecrow out of my comment just to push it down?
All I did was point out my experience seeing others trying to dabble in gardening and made comparisons to how users approach OSs.
Was I being hyperbolic for humor? Sure. But so were you (I hope ffs) comparing learning a few commands to becoming a mechanic lol.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree that having to learn how linux works to run linux is necessarily a problem. It’s been so long since I used windows now (last was w10, not like 98, still been a few years) that now I find windows harder to use than linux cli, even with its fancy schmansy GUI. I’ve never used apple or iPhone, so I know fuck all about macOS and the few times I’ve had to touch an iPhone I literally say “ugh what the fuck is this thing, hey [friend, iPhone owner], can you make this thing do the youtube for me,” but that’s because I’m too lazy to learn the UI (because I don’t want to, because walled garden so I only use it on those rare occasions and would never buy one, but I digress), “learning” is intrinsic to “new thing,” not just “linux cli.” You’re (or whoever ykwim) just not willing to do the work to switch to “new thing,” and that’s fine, it’s not for you (of course Microsoft will hide the control panel you’re used to and make you learn a new gui way to change some setting that they keep changing back every update, for instance, but at least it’s incremental I suppose.) But not everything has to be for everyone, all is good! But it isn’t because “linux hard” nor “cli bad” nor “they are too fucking dumb to learn a few commands,” it’s because they don’t want to, people want what is familiar and many think they’re done learning the second school ends.
I also barely have to touch the CLI btw (except I choose to all the time because it’s so convenient, but I don’t have to,) I could usually use the GUI, and often do for other things that are more convenient that way. Ymmv.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it btw, being a mechanic is more analogous to working with hardware, like building a gaming rig or something. Learning an OS is more like learning how to operate that hardware. At most, you’re used to automatic, you don’t want to learn how to drive stick, but it’s not that much harder, you can, you just don’t want to.
I meant more along the lines of knowing the inner workings of a car and how to modify it. But whatever, it was a bad analogy and I won’t defend it.
I don’t think that having to learn how Linux works to use it is a problem per se. I just believe that wanting widespread use while being against simplification/abstraction is an incompatible view.
That’s true, but not all learning is equal. Visual and positional features can make learning things easier by creating mental connections and shortcuts, while computer languages aren’t even processed like real languages.
Moreover, a good GUI should be built with good UX in mind and help the user in the process of learning by creating and taking advantage of existing connections, the same isn’t true in a CLI, at best commands can resemble natural language, which does help, but even that has limits. For example, a GUI’s symbols are independent from language whereas a CLI’s commands aren’t, whether you’re in Japan or in the US, you know a trashcan is somewhere you discard stuff, meanwhile commands might as well be random symbol combinations for people that don’t speak english.
I’d like to point out that I’ve used Linux in the past for 4 years (I only swapped because I didn’t bother reinstalling Mint after switching PCs. I also didn’t even have problems with the terminal actually, although I did avoid it when possible). And my experience was mildly negative, and I interacted with people that also had negative experiences with their distros (positives too, most of my friends prefer Linux), so it annoys me that when people give feedback on the Linux UX and are met with defensiveness and dismissal of their experiences while simultaneously being told by Linux fans to blindly adopt it.
Once again, I’d like to point out that I never argued that.
I do like to counter this. People love learning and are constantly seeking new things to learn (sometimes that is misinformation, so ymmv). People just would rather learn out of passion than necessity. For a lot of people the computer is nothing more than a medium to do what they want, they don’t care about how it works nor do they want to learn. And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view.
Btw, it’s fine if Linux just stays being a niche OS for programmers and tech enthusiasts, I just find it annoying how every time people point out that Linux and its communities can be newb unfriendly, theyr ar eoften met with: “Am I wrong? No the newbs are just too lazy”.
Lastly, I just like to point out that in this thread OP said GUI are more intuitive, to which you mentioned that gardening doesn’t have GUIs and I pointed out that gardening isn’t intuitive and people bounce off of gardening as a hobby before you launched on a tangent about people not being willing to learn new things.
And I believe people should be able/willing to learn if they want to adopt a new system, especially one that allows so much freedom the standardization you seek is antithetical to it’s entire ethos. Just by the existence of both KDE and GNOME you’re already “abstracting” things and making it “more difficult” than “you will suck Microsoft’s one DE and like it,” and that’s just two of the DEs to choose, you’d rather there only be GNOME “because it’s simpler and will help new people learn?” Well too bad, I like KDE and I like that you’re free to choose GNOME. “Thinking people should switch from X to Y is incompatible unless you make Y as much like X as possible,” isn’t it, we’re saying “X is bad, Y is better, try doing things Y’s way.” Making X like Y isn’t “doing it Y’s way,” it’s just windows with extra steps.
And not all people learn the same way, you need the pretty pictures, some don’t.
Sure, but beyond the trash icon, if you have to compress a file (or do like 99% of things including switch system languages), using the GUI doesn’t help if your computer is stuck in Japanese. C’mon dude, Kanji is random symbols regardless of if you’re in GUI or CLI, absoLUTELY not independant of language, even Romanji you’d be fucked and you know it.
(or whoever ykwim)
Read: it isn’t for me
Read: It’s me not linux
some
Well tbh, welcome to the real world, sometimes you “need” to learn some shit. And if you decide you “need” control over your laptop and to break the shackles of Microsoft without spending $45000 to trade Microsoft’s spyware for apple’s, then you “need” to learn how to use Linux or BSD, because short of TempleOS that’s all that’s left. Sucks bro, is what it is.
Most people never touch anything bigger than their phone outside of work. Let em. If they want freedom they can always choose to learn, they can, they just don’t want to.
Hey that’s my line. And they barely need to know “how it works,” they don’t know “how windows works,” half of them don’t even know what the registry is even if they’ve used CMD before (looks an awful lot like CLI now that we’re mentioning it, and gParted, the GNOME GUI tool, works a lot better than diskpart I’ll tell you what) yet they use it just fine. They just need to be able to get by, same as purty-gui’d windows.
Hell it isn’t if you’re not scared, I know rednecks in trailers and grandmas that use it.
That’s fair, I bet they are unfriendly when you show up saying “linux sucks I don’t want to learn make it work” which I for some reason feel probably describes you fairly well. They were always nice to me (short of literally one user on c/linux.ml, chef_koch, but he was banned 4y ago), probably because I was approaching it with a better attitude and a willingness to learn rather than animosity, but who knows.
Some are, you are. I was never told that as a noob showing a willingness to learn. Perhaps this problem is not divorced from “you.” “If you meet 5 assholes in a day, maybe you’re the asshole.”
And plenty of people learn to garden. Gardening isn’t for everyone. Stick to your iphone.