You’ve shifted the goalposts multiple times. either way, the majority of Ukrainians want the war to end when this polling was done, a significant amount are willing to cede territory, the next numbers in this poll are 10-12% lower than they actually are due to not polling the pro-Russian population in eastern Ukraine, and as time goes on the numbers will get higher because Ukrainians are losing the war, more territory, and entire generations of citizens along with their future. If you are pro Ukrainian you would be agreeing with Ukrainians that the war needs a negotiated peace and in order to do so they will have to give Russia concessions
Addressing the points you’re making isn’t “shifting the goalposts”…it’s just pointing out that you’re incorrect.
Even if the 10-12% unaccounted for all want to cede land to Russia, it still isn’t a majority. And simply saying that 52% want to negotiate doesn’t imply what you are saying it does. Of course they want the war to end. That isn’t the gotcha you think it is.
The fact that after years of fighting, that majority is as slim as it is…and the fact that half of those who even want to negotiate for peace rather than continue to fight, don’t want to cede any land at all to Russia…speaks volumes for how the majority of Ukrainians feel about the situation. And it isn’t what you’re claiming. A full 3/4 of the population don’t think Russia should be given anything in a settlement, regardless of how it’s reached.
When “negotiating peace” with Russia means allowing them to keep all the land they stole, along with promising not to build up any defense against future aggression…then yes, fighting is the only option.
If that negotiated peace includes Russia’s unconditional withdrawal from the country…all of it…and assurances that they will not attack again…then sure, negotiations are preferred.
This isn’t “changing the goalposts” as you keep saying. These are simply Ukraine’s terms. And they are not unreasonable. Why should they be expected to give land to the ones that invaded their country? And why would anyone agree to disarm and never make defensive agreements, when the country right next door to you has proven time and again, that they are hostile, and want your land and resources?
Expecting Ukraine to agree to what is essentially an unconditional surrender to a foreign invader, is absurd. But that is what Russia is asking for.
As to the rest of that conspiracy driven crap…man, you need to wake up. None of that is true. Ukraine just wants to be left alone. They have every right to trade with whoever they want to. And Russia has no right to tell them they can’t.
Pretending like there’s anything more to the situation than Putin wanting Ukraine and it’s resources back under his personal control, is intellectually dishonest. It’s laughable that anyone takes that kind of garbage seriously. You literally have to turn off your critical thinking skills in order to believe that outside forces are what’s behind this war, when the obvious truth is right there in front of you…and requires no such assumptions.
Lol! So, that’s what matters to you? Who wins and who loses?
It’s not about who’s right or who’s wrong? It’s just about who has the biggest army?
Dude. That’s about as fucked up as it gets. Why aren’t you cheering for NATO then? They have a bigger army, and by your moral compass…that makes them “right”.
Russia invaded Ukraine. How was Ukraine supposed to “agree to peace” in the beginning, when they didn’t start the war? Surrender? Then what? Why would Russia stop taking land if Ukraine simply let’s them, without any resistance? You aren’t making a rational argument.
As for who is “right” and who is “wrong”…it isn’t about “good guys” and “bad guys”. That’s just a jeuvanile characterization that has no real meaning. It is objectively “wrong” to attack another country. It is objectively “wrong” to steal land from your neighbor.
It was objectively “wrong” for the US to attack and invade Iraq…wasn’t it? Even though they made up excuses about “fighting terror”, and “WMD’s”, and spreading “freedom and democracy”? These are all lies that imperialists use to justify violence. Now, it’s Russia lying in order to justify their use of violence in order to steal land and resources from their neighbors. Imagine being so gullible that you actually believe they are “deNazifying” Ukraine, or “defending themselves against NATO”. The level of willful ignorance it must take to look at what Russia is doing, and just shrug like it’s justified, must be exhausting. Just the idea that somehow it’s Ukraine’s fault for the war starting in the first place, when they are the ones being attacked, is ludicrous.
And as I said in a previous comment, that didn’t seem to register at all in your bizarre backwards narrative…what exactly do you consider “negotiations”? Unconditional surrender seems to be the only thing on the table as far as Russia is concerned. What is Ukraine supposed to negotiate here? You call it “moving the goalposts” to even mention the land that Russia has stolen as being something to negotiate FOR. What exactly is an acceptable amount of land to give back? Because expecting Ukraine to agree to giving up any land, simply rewards Russia for their hostility. That is unacceptable, no matter who the aggressor is.
The US was “wrong” to invade Iraq. But even the US left Iraq after the war was over. Explain how Russia is somehow “right” here, when they’re planning on keeping what they’ve stolen?
As for “cheering on Ukraine’s destruction”…man, that is beyond insanity. Russia is the aggressor here. They can stop the violence any time they want to, by simply leaving Ukraine. No one is forcing them to keep fighting. That’s the difference between attacking and defending. If you stop attacking, you get peace. But if you stop defending yourself, you die. Russia is the only one in this situation that can “make peace”. Ukraine doesn’t have that option, because they aren’t the ones attacking Russia.
You’ve shifted the goalposts multiple times. either way, the majority of Ukrainians want the war to end when this polling was done, a significant amount are willing to cede territory, the next numbers in this poll are 10-12% lower than they actually are due to not polling the pro-Russian population in eastern Ukraine, and as time goes on the numbers will get higher because Ukrainians are losing the war, more territory, and entire generations of citizens along with their future. If you are pro Ukrainian you would be agreeing with Ukrainians that the war needs a negotiated peace and in order to do so they will have to give Russia concessions
Addressing the points you’re making isn’t “shifting the goalposts”…it’s just pointing out that you’re incorrect.
Even if the 10-12% unaccounted for all want to cede land to Russia, it still isn’t a majority. And simply saying that 52% want to negotiate doesn’t imply what you are saying it does. Of course they want the war to end. That isn’t the gotcha you think it is.
The fact that after years of fighting, that majority is as slim as it is…and the fact that half of those who even want to negotiate for peace rather than continue to fight, don’t want to cede any land at all to Russia…speaks volumes for how the majority of Ukrainians feel about the situation. And it isn’t what you’re claiming. A full 3/4 of the population don’t think Russia should be given anything in a settlement, regardless of how it’s reached.
That’s what the majority want.
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When “negotiating peace” with Russia means allowing them to keep all the land they stole, along with promising not to build up any defense against future aggression…then yes, fighting is the only option.
If that negotiated peace includes Russia’s unconditional withdrawal from the country…all of it…and assurances that they will not attack again…then sure, negotiations are preferred.
This isn’t “changing the goalposts” as you keep saying. These are simply Ukraine’s terms. And they are not unreasonable. Why should they be expected to give land to the ones that invaded their country? And why would anyone agree to disarm and never make defensive agreements, when the country right next door to you has proven time and again, that they are hostile, and want your land and resources?
Expecting Ukraine to agree to what is essentially an unconditional surrender to a foreign invader, is absurd. But that is what Russia is asking for.
As to the rest of that conspiracy driven crap…man, you need to wake up. None of that is true. Ukraine just wants to be left alone. They have every right to trade with whoever they want to. And Russia has no right to tell them they can’t.
Pretending like there’s anything more to the situation than Putin wanting Ukraine and it’s resources back under his personal control, is intellectually dishonest. It’s laughable that anyone takes that kind of garbage seriously. You literally have to turn off your critical thinking skills in order to believe that outside forces are what’s behind this war, when the obvious truth is right there in front of you…and requires no such assumptions.
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Lol! So, that’s what matters to you? Who wins and who loses?
It’s not about who’s right or who’s wrong? It’s just about who has the biggest army?
Dude. That’s about as fucked up as it gets. Why aren’t you cheering for NATO then? They have a bigger army, and by your moral compass…that makes them “right”.
smh.
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Buddy, nothing you just said is true. Not a word.
Russia invaded Ukraine. How was Ukraine supposed to “agree to peace” in the beginning, when they didn’t start the war? Surrender? Then what? Why would Russia stop taking land if Ukraine simply let’s them, without any resistance? You aren’t making a rational argument.
As for who is “right” and who is “wrong”…it isn’t about “good guys” and “bad guys”. That’s just a jeuvanile characterization that has no real meaning. It is objectively “wrong” to attack another country. It is objectively “wrong” to steal land from your neighbor.
It was objectively “wrong” for the US to attack and invade Iraq…wasn’t it? Even though they made up excuses about “fighting terror”, and “WMD’s”, and spreading “freedom and democracy”? These are all lies that imperialists use to justify violence. Now, it’s Russia lying in order to justify their use of violence in order to steal land and resources from their neighbors. Imagine being so gullible that you actually believe they are “deNazifying” Ukraine, or “defending themselves against NATO”. The level of willful ignorance it must take to look at what Russia is doing, and just shrug like it’s justified, must be exhausting. Just the idea that somehow it’s Ukraine’s fault for the war starting in the first place, when they are the ones being attacked, is ludicrous.
And as I said in a previous comment, that didn’t seem to register at all in your bizarre backwards narrative…what exactly do you consider “negotiations”? Unconditional surrender seems to be the only thing on the table as far as Russia is concerned. What is Ukraine supposed to negotiate here? You call it “moving the goalposts” to even mention the land that Russia has stolen as being something to negotiate FOR. What exactly is an acceptable amount of land to give back? Because expecting Ukraine to agree to giving up any land, simply rewards Russia for their hostility. That is unacceptable, no matter who the aggressor is.
The US was “wrong” to invade Iraq. But even the US left Iraq after the war was over. Explain how Russia is somehow “right” here, when they’re planning on keeping what they’ve stolen?
As for “cheering on Ukraine’s destruction”…man, that is beyond insanity. Russia is the aggressor here. They can stop the violence any time they want to, by simply leaving Ukraine. No one is forcing them to keep fighting. That’s the difference between attacking and defending. If you stop attacking, you get peace. But if you stop defending yourself, you die. Russia is the only one in this situation that can “make peace”. Ukraine doesn’t have that option, because they aren’t the ones attacking Russia.
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