What logical fallacy? The fact that the US is a very religious study doesn’t change the fact that they have scientists that are religious. If religion was anti-science then you wouldn’t have scientists that are religious, regardless of how religious the country is.
You’re the one committing the fallacy. How religious the the country is has no barring on the argument presented.
Point me to any country on the map
that’s a theocracyand I’ll show you how they brutalize their population.
FTFY. Don’t tell me it’s “some bad apples”, clearly all government’s are bad.
religion shouldn’t be allowed to interfere in other people’s lives, should not have any say in how a goverment runs and how laws get passed and should be forced to pay taxes like any other business
I agree 100%. I don’t know what you think you’re arguing against because I never said otherwise.
Jesus fucking christ, religion IS a group
The Taliban and Buddhists have very different beliefs. If you’re trying to argue that they are part of the same “group” seeking political power and social control then you are either an idiot or completely disingenuous. I am not the one being dishonest here if you’re saying they’re the same group.
This is why I know the motivations of the Christian Right and the threat they pose to everyone on Earth. It’s a dangerous fucking death-cult.
I agree, the Christian Right is fucking insane. So it’s the Taliban. Note how we are now talking about specific groups instead of Religion as some monolithic entity (Something you were opposed to people doing to Science.) Also note that trying to use Science has never successfully convinced these groups to behave differently.
because you’re afraid of pushing away theists and think that being like “both sides don’t understand each other” that you will make more progress to get people to get along.
You are inferring a lot here. I’m not scared of pushing anyone away. I’m also not trying to get everyone to get along. I’m saying it’s a waste of fucking time and makes no sense for either one.
Religion is a threat to us all
Do you see what happened there? You were talking about the Christian Right and the problems they cause, and then suddenly changed to the monolithic group of “Religion” as a whole again, as if the Christian Right was every religion and religious person in the world.
you need to focus your statement against the actual antagonist here.
Agreed. The USA is less religious now than it has ever been. If “Religion”, as a monolithic group, was anti-science then book burnings would have been commonplace for its entire existence and vaccines never would have been allowed.
The fact that these are more common now while the USA is less religious would suggest the problem is not the monolithic group of “religion” but instead a specific group. To me it looks a lot more politically driven than it is religious, but I would not claim that “politics is anti-science”.
Science does not seek to argue against religion, it seeks nothing, it’s just a word to describe a system for finding truth if that’s what you’re after.
That is what I said, yes. Glad we’re on the same page.
So the reason you’re seeing people using science to attack religion
The thing we both agreed science is not meant for. Go on.
is because YOU STARTED IT BY EQUATING THEM.
The meme was equating them. I pointed out the pointlessness of that.
you are approaching from a dense mindset that science is a “group” actively out trying to fight religion
Strange, I am seeing so many replies treating Religion as a “group” actively out to fight science. Can we agree that both of these are wrong?
it’s because this is a tired trope
Science and religion have nothing in common is a tried trope? Because a lot of the response I’m getting seem the think they have something in common and anything relevant to say about one another.
You don’t need religion
Never said you did.
religion says you need it and it actively tries to attack other systems for understanding the world
And here we go treating Religion as a “group” again. I thought that was bad? Or is it only bad if you think someone is doing that to Science?
science broadly wouldn’t care one way or another if it disappeared tomorrow or if more people started believing in God
I agree. That’s what I’ve been saying. What are you arguing with specifically?
I cannot fathom why you’re being so self-contradictory in your efforts here.
What contradictions? You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I have been arguing for religion at some point. I have done no such thing. I have simply said “arguing science vs religion makes no sense and is a waste of time” and for some reason you assumed that meant I must be arguing for religion when I have done no such thing.(Other than pointing out religion is not a monolithic group I suppose. Pointing out the flaws in a claim is hardly the same arguing for the opposing viewpoints)
You are still trying to weigh these two ideas against each other like they are neck-and-neck in a race
I am not. How is repeatedly saying they have nothing to with each other treating them like they are in a neck-and-neck race? One is running down a track and the other is painting a picture. They have nothing to do with one another
if you think that people make some choice like “will I use science or religion to figure this out”
Again, if they have nothing to do with one another, why would I think “people make some choice like ‘will I use science or religion to figure this out’” ? That makes as much a thinking people use some choice like “I will use math or art to figure this out.” I have said repeatedly they are not the same and you keep arguing as if I have been claiming otherwise.
I am saying you’re fucking EQUATING them against each other
No more than the meme is, and I am pointing out the pointlessness of doing so.
You don’t need religion or God to have a better world
Never claimed you did.
What exactly do you think is happening?
I think people on the Internet who don’t properly understand Science or Religion try to use one to argue against the other without realizing it makes no sense and is useless.
It’s not designed to attack religion, it’s not competing for anything, you can indeed have both spirituality and religion and science in your life without conflict.
That is exactly what I said, yes. I’m glad we agree.
But that’s not what Christians and theists broadly do, is it?
If you think the majority of Christians and Theists are trying to burn books and force creationism is schools then you will be shocked when you find out how many Christians and Theists actually exist in the world. The majority of Americans are Theists. The fact that some sect is trying to force creationism in schools, and it’s not there by default, would be evidence that that is not a broadly held opinion by thesists. Afterall, if the majority of people wanted it it wouldn’t be that hard to implement.
now why are you doing it?
Where specifically did I do it?
Lol do you live in a cave or something,
religiousPolitical organizations used to straight up torture and kill scientists if they made any claims that were not in line with what thereligionpolitics claimed, read up on what they did to the early astronomers who were figuring out that the sun and not earth is the center of or solar system, and that’s just one instance, I can point to a million other atrocities that today’s society views as barbaric done by organizedreligionpolitics.ReligionPolitics has nothing to do with living a good life, it’s about centralising power and control over the masses and making them obey your commands.
I guess all politics are bad and we would be better off if banned all politics.
People using religion as an excuse does not mean all religion is bad and that the people doing these things are not culpable for their actions. You are dismissing the people who chose to do these things and blaming Religion instead. Don’t let them get away with that. Blame the person for being a piece of shit.
There are just as many scientist that are religious in some fashion as scientist that are not. If religion was antithetical to science you wouldn’t have scientists with religious beliefs.
You’re not in here supplying people with a way to harmonize conflicting belief systems, because science isn’t a fucking belief system.
Correct. I am also not trying to do so. I am literally saying the two have nothing to do with one another and that’s why using one to argue against the other it pointless.
The people disagreeing with me seem to really want to use science to argue with religion, which ignores the fact that that’s not how science works, it is not a useful persuit for science, and religion doesn’t care.
Science has, to my knowledge, never tried to influence religious teachings
The meme I was responding to seems to be specifically trying to use Science to discredit religion.
Religion, conversely, has tried to stop, slow or otherwise discredit, scientific research, and understanding.
And I argue strongly against any idiots trying to do that. However It’s incredibly disingenuous to claim “Religion” as a whole does this. Many scientist are religious in some for or another, so it’s not the concept of “Religion” that tries to discredit scientific research, it’s specific groups using religion as an excuse. The AntiVax MAGA crowd aren’t trying to stop vaccines for religious reasons, they’re doing it for political reasons. Some of them might try to use religion as an excuse (despite their religious literature saying nothing that would oppose vaccines) because they do not actually understand either religion or science.
When you come in “both siding” religion broadly
I am not “both siding”, I am saying they have nothing to do with each other.
you’re asking a lot of people who already have discarded religion to accept some part of it
Where did I do that? I simply said there is no point and no reason to try to use science to argue against religion. The fact that people seem to find that offensive makes me think there are a lot of people wasting their time trying to use science to argue against religion.
Science isn’t trying to invade people’s homes and tell them what they can and cannot do as consenting adults. Science isn’t trying to give people an excuse to be passive about injustice. Science doesn’t condone slavery and hate and violence and organize mass numbers of people to adopt hateful views.
People have tried to use science to do all these things. Eugenics was used as an excuse to push horrific policies.
The problem with blaming “Religion” is you are excusing the people who are doing the horrible shit. Instead of blaming the person who is being a homophobic shitbag you blame religion, dismissing the agency of the individual and excusing their terrible behaviour because “religion make them do it.” Don’t fall for it. Don’t let them hide behind religion and use it as an excuse. Blame the person for being a piece of shit and treat them accordingly as someone who has willfully chosen to do so.
There is material HARM that comes from religious ideology because it’s trying, and has BEEN trying to supplant logic and reason and the scientific process since science became a thing.
And scientists have never done material harm by performing unethicall experiments citing “logic and reason” as an excuse… Clearly all Science must be bad then because some “scientists” are pieces of shit.
This is not a “two sides” issue and I strongly resent the framing as such
The meme in the OP is framing it as a “two sides” issue and that is what I am arguing against. I agree that this is not a “two sides” situation. This is a “two completely different things that have nothing to do with each other” situation.
They are not equivalent.
I have been explicitly saying that they are not the same at all. I used an analogy of Painting and Music which are not equivalent because they are two completely different things. My entire point is people shouldn’t be comparing the two or conflating the two.
Using science to “argue” against religion makes as much sense as using religion to “argue” against science: none. They do not operate in the same spheres, they do not seek to answer the same questions. They do not share and of the same purposes or goals. People need to stop treating them like they have anything in common.
Yes, and a lot of Science has historically happened in the USA, a very religious country.
As long as religion makes unprovable claims, it has no place next to science.
Like I said: they are completely different things. I agree there is no reason for the two to interact with one another. As such there is no reason to do things like compare the size of their literature (as a random example).
even though there is no evidence of any gods existing
This is that Science arguing with Religion thing that I already said doesn’t actually make sense.
Science isn’t out there making rules for owning slaves.
Okay, I just said science and religion do not overlap so saying religion does something science does not just further supports my argument.
And so that line about philosophy is utter bs
Philosophy is not science
Philosophy also doesn’t lay out rules for owning slaves
Depends in the philosopher:
Aristotle, in the first book of his Politics defends slavery …
“Where then there is such a difference as that between soul and body, or between men and animals (as in the case of those whose business is to use their body, and who can do nothing better), the lower sort are by nature slaves, and it is better for them as for all inferiors that they should be under the rule of a master. For he who can be, and therefore is, another’s and he who participates in rational principle enough to apprehend, but not to have, such a principle, is a slave by nature.”
The fact that people can have a religious book that has rules for owning slaves, while they themselves are opposed to owning slaves, indicates they are taking the “philosophy” they find useful from the book and not strictly adhering to everything in it.
“you don’t need to tell us not to be anti-religious because of Science, you need to tell people not to be anti-Science because of religion.”
My dude, I’m telling both. Which group is more common in this comment section?
Again, there are plenty of scientist who follow one religion or another:
According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/
It doesn’t make sense to claim religion is by default anti-science when scientists are just as likely to be religious as not. If religion was as anti-Science as you claim then no scientists would be religious.
People who don’t understand science or religion are anti-science, and they use religion as an excuse.
People who think Science and Religion are opposed to one another don’t understand either one.
What is science? Observing how to world works and learning from that.
What is religion? Philosophy (Here how you should behave, and how to live a good life)
Science has no reason to argue with religion, because religion is not scientific. There is nothing that can be proven or disproven.
Religion has no reason to argue with science, because whatever religion believes about the origin of the world, science just seeks to better understand that world. Knowing how electrons move is not an affront to God.
Arguing Science vs Religion is like arguing Painting vs Music. Sure, they’re both art but they are completely different and do not overlap. There are plenty of scientists who follow one religion or another.
You contradict yourself:
The most charitable interpretation I can give you is that “scientists” aren’t trying to use science to discredit the religion, “people” are.
So people who understand science aren’t trying to use science to attack religion, people who don’t understand science are, which was my original point. Just like it’s people who don’t understand science that try to use religion to attack it.
I didn’t claim it doesn’t happen from either science or religion. I claimed the people doing it don’t understand and it’s a pointless waste of time.
Yes. Historically speaking everything is terrible. There is a long history of Science doing terrible and unethical experiments. There is a long history of governments doing terrible things. There is a long history of immoral and cruel laws. The history of humanity is full of atrocities.
This does not mean Science, Politics, Law, and Humanity should be by default considered bad. People who used Religion to attack Science were dumb as fuck then and are dumb as fuck now.
So if science doesn’t care (which I agree with by the way) then making memes that imply science cares is a waste of time. Not only that, by acting like science cares and has something to say about religion it implies that religion has something to say about science. Instead of treating them like they have nothing to do with each other, it invites more “Religion vs Science” BS.