The point being raised is that the current wage system is oriented around profit alone. Systems designed to meet the needs of the people as the prime order for society would still pay for labor, at least initially, but wouldn’t threaten people into doing so via starvation.
And if we maintained a wage based system
with some degree of inequality that comes with it I would expect people to do these jobs. The moment there is no personal benefit I doubt you will ever find people doing the dangerous critical work.
They aren’t posing a socialist one. They are posing a communist or anarchist society which does not pay.
edit: whoops forgot who I was replying to and what you initially replied to. You are correct Cowbee in that this wouldnt be a problem under socialism. Others, not you, have proposed a purely volunteer system and that’s impossible.
Communism is a post-socialist society. When others speak of moving beyond wage labor, it’s a process that requires many steps and twisting roads, not just something we do outright. At least, that’s the Marxist viewpoint, and I’ll let anarchists speak for themselves.
Communist society that has sufficiently advanced and collectivized production will still require labor, but said labor will largely be either enjoyable or easy, and will be constantly automated even further, as the goal is to meet the needs of as many people as possible with as little labor as possible, as opposed to creating the most profits regardless of labor.
And the idea that this will magically be automated, pleasurable or volunteer based is why I believe many leftists have no real understanding of the work that needs to be done or how incredibly dangerous some of that is. Fir example It’s a fantasy to presume people will engage in underwater welding just because we need it.
It’s also a fantasy to presume jobs like underwater welding cannot and will not be automated, or that it can’t be compensated for by requiring fewer hours worked or other means than wage labor.
There’s every reason to believe it can be automated. Welding itself is already highly automated, and underwater welding is highly dangerous, it’s natural for science to continue advancing technology in useful ways.
Additionally, nobody said no benefit. You read “moving beyond wage labor” and assume everything is purely volunteer work, which isn’t what people are suggesting.
The point being raised is that the current wage system is oriented around profit alone. Systems designed to meet the needs of the people as the prime order for society would still pay for labor, at least initially, but wouldn’t threaten people into doing so via starvation.
And if we maintained a wage based system with some degree of inequality that comes with it I would expect people to do these jobs. The moment there is no personal benefit I doubt you will ever find people doing the dangerous critical work.
Not a single socialist system has ever had equal pay across the board. I’m not sure what strawman you’re trying to fight here.
They aren’t posing a socialist one. They are posing a communist or anarchist society which does not pay.
edit: whoops forgot who I was replying to and what you initially replied to. You are correct Cowbee in that this wouldnt be a problem under socialism. Others, not you, have proposed a purely volunteer system and that’s impossible.
Communism is a post-socialist society. When others speak of moving beyond wage labor, it’s a process that requires many steps and twisting roads, not just something we do outright. At least, that’s the Marxist viewpoint, and I’ll let anarchists speak for themselves.
Communist society that has sufficiently advanced and collectivized production will still require labor, but said labor will largely be either enjoyable or easy, and will be constantly automated even further, as the goal is to meet the needs of as many people as possible with as little labor as possible, as opposed to creating the most profits regardless of labor.
And the idea that this will magically be automated, pleasurable or volunteer based is why I believe many leftists have no real understanding of the work that needs to be done or how incredibly dangerous some of that is. Fir example It’s a fantasy to presume people will engage in underwater welding just because we need it.
It’s also a fantasy to presume jobs like underwater welding cannot and will not be automated, or that it can’t be compensated for by requiring fewer hours worked or other means than wage labor.
No, it isn’t fantasy to think that. There’s no reason to believe it can be automated.
Would you do life risking work for zero benefit?
There’s every reason to believe it can be automated. Welding itself is already highly automated, and underwater welding is highly dangerous, it’s natural for science to continue advancing technology in useful ways.
Additionally, nobody said no benefit. You read “moving beyond wage labor” and assume everything is purely volunteer work, which isn’t what people are suggesting.