Their Rule 4:
No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don’t question the statehood of Israel.
Europe@feddit.org removed my comment for de-tangling the conflation of antisemitism and anti-zionism. A dangerous conflation that is genuinely antisemitic and fuels antisemitic hate as it conflates the actions of Israel and Zionism to all Jewish people and Judaism.
This prioritization of the German definition, the adopted IHRA definition, is promoting antisemtitism and is diametrically opposed to the ‘No antisemitism’ aspect of the rule. The definition has been condemned by the writer of the definition, a multitude of human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch (HRW), American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), B’Tselem, Peace Now, and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR), and over 120 leading scholars of anti-semitism.
Germany Is Trying to Combat Antisemitism. Experts Warn a New Resolution May Do the Opposite
Fifteen Israeli nongovernmental organizations, including the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, B’Tselem and Peace Now, issued an open letter in September stating their concern that the resolution, especially the IHRA definition, could be weaponized to “silence public dissent.”
This could also affect Jewish voices speaking out for Palestinian rights and opposing the occupation, they added. “Paradoxically, the resolution may therefore undermine, not protect, the diversity of Jewish life in Germany,” the letter argued.
Rights groups urge UN not to adopt IHRA anti-Semitism definition
"The IHRA definition has often been used to wrongly label criticism of Israel as antisemitic, and thus chill and sometimes suppress, non-violent protest, activism and speech critical of Israel and/or Zionism, including in the US and Europe,” the letter said.
US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW), American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Israeli rights group B’Tselem, and the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) were among the signatories
The letter is the latest attempt by human rights advocates to urge the UN not to adopt the IHRA definition. In November, more than 120 scholars called on the world body to reject the definition, due to its “divisive and polarising” effect.
128 scholars ask UN not to adopt IHRA definition of anti-Semitism
In a statement published on Thursday, the 128 scholars, who include leading Jewish academics at Israeli, European, United Kingdom and United States universities, said the definition has been “hijacked” to protect the Israeli government from international criticism
Why the man who drafted the IHRA definition condemns its use
The drafter of what later became popularly known as the EUMC or IHRA definition of antisemitism,including its associated examples, was the U.S. attorney Kenneth S. Stern. However, in written evidence submitted to the US Congress last year, Stern charged that his original definition had been used for an entirely different purpose to that for which it had been designed. According to Stern it had originally been designed as a ”working definition” for the purpose of trying to standardise data collection about the incidence of antisemitic hate crime in different countries. It had never been intended that it be used as legal or regulatory device to curb academic or political free speech. Yet that is how it has now come to be used. In the same document Stern specifically condemns as inappropriate the use of the definition for such purposes, mentioning in particular the curbing of free speech in UK universities, and referencing Manchester and Bristol universities as examples. Here is what he writes:
The EUMC “working definition” was recently adopted in the United Kingdom, and applied to campus. An “Israel Apartheid Week” event was cancelled as violating the definition. A Holocaust survivor was required to change the title of a campus talk, and the university [Manchester] mandated it be recorded, after an Israeli diplomat [ambassador Regev] complained that the title violated the definition.[See here]. Perhaps most egregious, an off-campus group citing the definition called on a university to conduct an inquiry of a professor (who received her PhD from Columbia) for antisemitism, based on an article she had written years before. The university [Bristol] then conducted the inquiry. And while it ultimately found no basis to discipline the professor, the exercise itself was chilling and McCarthy-like. [square brackets added – GW]
This seems like PTB for sure. I do not support what Israel is doing and it is without a doubt a genocide. I’ve had people gaslight me and say I’m antisemitic for believing Palestinians have the right to not be murdered and that Israel as a country probably shouldn’t exist. And you know what. Fuck those people. Fuck people who try to accuse others of being Antisemitic because they disagree and want to shut down your criticism. People like this need to be put in their place and confronted, not yielded to.
that Israel as a country probably shouldn’t exist.
Ok, then please explain what you think would happen with all the Jewish people that were born and live there in such a case?
And please be realistic, because everyone lives happily ever after is an extremely unlikely scenario.
I am not saying that you are antisemitic, but please think these things through before saying stuff that can very well be interpreted as such.
Same as the White South Africans, stay or leave.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through yourself.
I asked to be realistic. That ship has sailed in regards to Israel a long time ago.
Not once US support stops 🐸
Kinda like what happened with south afrika
The ANC is not comparable to Hamas or Hezbollah, and these kind of “funny” remarks about how there will be a free for all with Jewish lives “once the US support stops” is exactly why people consider such remarks as antisemitic.
I am sorry that you can’t see a multi cultural Palestinian state as a viable alternative to the genocide Israel
That’s a you problem. That’s what should have happened from the start but the Israeli project was always a genocide exercise. We just now finally got confirmation for it.
Also, the “antisemitism” is such tired bullshit tactic, let it go. Nobody is buying it. Israeli jews are doing a genocide. Get a clue
I don’t even disagree with you, but I find your suggestion to be extremely naive.
Once again South Africa shows how the world can bring down these hate regimes. It’s never too late.
If you’d said Irish rule had sailed a long time ago and consigned us to England, I’d have some words for you.
It’s wild that, as Israel’s genocide becomes more publicly exposed and people/countries are distancing from Israel, Germany is doubling down on their relationship with Israel.
Clearly, de-nazification did not work as intended post WW2.
Old habits die hard for the Germans it seems. The EU deserves so much better from Germany here.
They learned the wrong lessons. They thought the issue was targeting Jews, and not the genocide part. So now they’ve moved to taking Arab lives, which they believe to be less valuable.
PTB, This reeks of pro-Zionist bias from the mods and blatant attempts to censor criticism of Israel.
Let’s remember. Judaism is a religious minority comprising many different people with many different views. Zionism is a political nationalist movement supported by specific people. They are not the same thing. For one, it is not supported by all Jewish people, nor are all of its supporters even Jewish. So if someone tells you that you’re being Antisemitic for criticizing Zionism or Israel, tell them to fuck off. It’s clear they aren’t acting in good faith, just like those dipshits arguing that Greta Thunberg is antisemitic.
For decades The strongest supporters of Zionism have been American protestants
This is a pretty recent development tbh
AIPAC played their hand well and now we have solid 50 million american mouth breathers enabling this genocide while rest of us are relegated to doing these online circle jerks since you can’t criticize israel in any formal capacity if you want to keep your job lol
The vast majority of Jews are Zionists (i.e. support the existence of Israel. Half of the world‘s Jews live in Israel.
Are you trying to say that anti-Zionism is equivalent to antisemitism? Because that’s the only reason I can think of for why you’d try and make such an argument. To try and contrast or disagree with my statement that Zionism and Judaism are in fact different things. I maintain the fact that they are different and that calling out Zionism and Zionist apologia is not only acceptable but should be encouaged. People who call such people “Antisemitic” are Zionist trolls who should not be listened to and instead should be named and shamed, and ultimately banned from common spaces.
feddit.org is crap. when feddit.de died they forgot the benefits of a decentralized network just slapped ALL subs with german language on there.absolute idiots there.
Germany not be a fucking nazi challenge impossible
They’re Nazi by not questioning the statehood of Israel?
The internet was a mistake
They’re a Nazi by supporting genocide.
Weirdly they feel redeemed about ww2 all because they support Israel…
This “”“genocide”“” is actually the result a country that lost a war they started an entire generation ago refusing to surrender and just getting their shit pushed in repeatedly every time they try to zerg rush a much stronger opponent, all because they’re being bankrolled by Iran (leader of the new axis of evil and an enemy of the free world).
Oh fuck off and die genocide-denier. You are absolute trash tier human, fucking Nazi cunt.
Like Russia supported a post-Tito Serbian dominated Balkan that resulted in a clear definite conclusion ; an actually UN recognized, not just “internationally recognized”, genocide? With trials in the ICC in The Hague for example?
Yes, pretty much?
Is not common knowledge that Russia is a genocide state on par with Germany, Israel, US etc?
So who isn’t according to you?
Most other countries don’t have millions of people under their belt. Pretty much most non empire countries didn’t go out to kill millions of foreigners and undesirables for sport.
I know hard to imagine…
Are those countries in the room with us now?
For all the people saying it’s the instance trying to cover themselves, No. This is a mod account which is not an admin nor appears to be affiliated with the Admins. This is very clearly a person trying to frame criticism of Zionism as antisemitic to attempt to suppress criticism of Israel and their actions. PTB.
Nice catch. So this sounds like the same story as lemmy.world and Luigi. Idiot “mod” doing content censorship due to its own political bias…
YDI.
But let me be clear because some folks seem to not understand this in the past, good. Their rules clearly indicate that you’re breaking them, so for that, you ‘deserved’ the mod action. But this is an action worth deserving. Fuck them. Fuck them right in the ass.
They removed a comment of mine today because it denied the statehood of Israel. What a joke.
I looked it up. IMHO, I don’t really think you did in the text.
What a punch of genocide apologizing, spineless dorks. 🙄
Spineless indeed.
Those losers don’t even have it in them to comment here, they’re just silently downvoting comments in the thread.
FYI we can see you, your votes are publicly viewable through activitypub.
A mod messaged me, since it was a PM, I won’t share it here. But suffice to say we do not agree. Apparently some of the mods do actually browse this community.
Wdym about the votes? I don’t care who sees that stuff.
Wdym about the votes? I don’t care who sees that stuff.
I was referring to the two spineless trolls from feddit.org going through the thread and downvoting all PTB comments. Not you. Also not the mods there, they haven’t been commenting or voting here. It’s nice to see though that they do browse here.
Well duh. Abolishing Israel would cause the largest genocide in human history. If you support that then getting your comments deleted is the least you deserve.
Abolishing Israel would cause the largest genocide in human history
you can’t prove this
Yeah ok there buddy. Fuck the Zionists. I hope they all get what they deserve. They are committing genocide RIGHT NOW in Gaza.
Edit: From your comment history, it appears that you too are a Zionist. Fuck off. If there is a god, then he will judge you harshly for your support of the killing of women, children, the elderly, teachers and medics. Not to mention the thousands of starving children. Fuck you and everyone like you 😘
Yeah, I saw some of this nonsense in the modlog. PTB, I don’t know what the hell they are thinking.
“Rules are important! I’m a good boy, I follow the rules.” -German soldier in the 1940s
Germans for ya…
That is an unhelpful generalisation.
You ain’t wrong but I have yet to see a German on here acknowledge the genocide in Gaza
So I really don’t give two fucks. I am sure they exist but just like as with ww2, they don’t see anything and they are following the law 🤡
Us regime is also funding the genocide but at least we will come out and say fuck these regime whores and their owners.
Germans are still in denial who rules them…
Yeah let’s burden them with faults they now have nothing do do with anymore. Let’s shame them for their past they are in no way partaking in anymore.
It worked in WW1, wanna try again?
A) Germany is specifically and explicitly helping to carry out at least one internationally recognized genocide at this moment
B) everyone is criticizing them for their current actions, that happen to be an even less justifiable repeat of their previous actions.
A) Source for The Hague verdict that calls it an UN recognized genocide? Like the ethnic cleansing in Srebrenica?
B) So a comment about WW2 Germans about “just following orders” followed by “Germans in a nutshell” is all about their current actions?
So Russia invading Ukraine is and systematically erasing Ukraine cultural heritage by reeducation of children kidnapped to Russia is “Russians in a nutshell” because that happens to be an even less justifiable repeat of their previous actions?
Source for The Hague verdict that calls it an UN recognized genocide? Like the ethnic cleansing in Srebrenica?
So you specifically need a court to tell you what is and isn’t a genocide? Too stupid to think for 3 seconds and come to a conclusion on your own?
So a comment about WW2 Germans about “just following orders” followed b
Ah, you are too stupid
There are definitions for genocide, look them up. If you scaled up ie. Srebrenica to the deaths of the israeli-gaza conflict, and you compare the methodology they are planets apart
Wow, I did not expect the need to provide the overwhelming evidence that Israel is doing a genocide in this thread, but here.
Israel's Genocide on Occupied Palestine
- De-Gaza: A Year of Israel’s Genocide and the Collapse of World Order - Euro-Med Monitor Report see Chapter 2 and 3
Our first-hand observations of the medical and humanitarian catastrophe inflicted on Gaza are consistent with the descriptions provided by an increasing number of legal experts and organizations concluding that genocide is taking place in Gaza.
- Doctors Without Borders: Life in the death trap that is Gaza
It examines the killing of civilians, damage to and destruction of civilian infrastructure, forcible displacement, the obstruction or denial of life-saving goods and humanitarian aid, and the restriction of power supplies. It analyses Israel’s intent through this pattern of conduct and statements by Israeli decision-makers. It concludes that Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in Gaza.
- Amnesty: Israel’s Genocide Against Palestinians in Gaza Revealed Through Evidence and Analysis Video and Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territory: ‘You Feel Like You Are Subhuman’: Israel’s Genocide Against Palestinians in Gaza Report
On 26 January 2024, the ICJ said that it was plausible that Israel had breached the Genocide Convention. As an emergency measure, it ordered Israel ensure that its army refrained from genocidal acts against Palestinians.
The ICJ reported, as part of its decisions in March and May, that the situation in Gaza had deteriorated and that Israel had failed to abide by its order in January.
So, when we look at the actions taken, the dropping of thousands and thousands of bombs in a couple of days, including phosphorus bombs, as we heard, on one of the most densely populated areas around the world, together with these proclamations of intent, this indeed constitutes genocidal killing, which is the first act, according to the convention, of genocide. And Israel, I must say, is also perpetrating act number two and three — that is, causing serious bodily or mental harm, and creating condition designed to bring about the destruction of the group by cutting off water, food, supply of energy, bombing hospitals, ordering the fast evictions of hospitals, which the World Health Organization has declared to be, quote, “a death sentence.” So, we’re seeing the combination of genocidal acts with special intent. This is indeed a textbook case of genocide.
More than 800 scholars of international law and genocide have signed a public statement arguing that the Israeli military may be committing genocidal acts against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip as the total siege and relentless airstrikes continue to inflict devastation on the occupied territory.
An independent United Nations expert warned Monday that “Israel’s genocidal violence risks leaking out of Gaza and into the occupied Palestinian territory as a whole” as Western governments, corporations, and other institutions keep up their support for the Israeli military, which stands accused of grave war crimes in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
Our documentation encompasses over 500 incitements of violence and genocidal incitement, appearing in the forms of social media posts, television interviews, and official statements from Israeli politicians, army personnel, journalists, and other influential personalities.
I, Lee Mordechai, a historian by profession and an Israeli citizen, bear witness in this document to the situation in Gaza as events are unfolding. The enormous amount of evidence I have seen, much of it referenced later in this document, has been enough for me to believe that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian population in Gaza. I explain why I chose to use the term below. Israel’s campaign is ostensibly its reaction to the Hamas massacre of Oct. 7, 2023, in which war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed within the context of the longstanding conflict between Israelis and Palestinians that can be dated back to 1917 or 1948 (or other dates). In all cases, historical grievances and atrocities do not justify additional atrocities in the present. Therefore, I consider Israel’s response to Hamas’ actions on Oct. 7 utterly disproportionate and criminal.
We are attacking them for exactly what they are doing today?
Idiots still don’t get it
JFC how dense are these people
PTB. There is no reason to blindly adopt the IHRA definition.
The reason to blindly adopt is to ban antifascists from public discourse.
There is no reason to blindly adopt the IHRA definition
There’s no reason, unless you want your instance to be a safe place for the Jewish people
There’s no reason, unless you want your instance to be a safe place for
the Jewish peopleZionistsFixed it for you.
Why do you think that Jews don’t deserve to have a home? Why does every other race and religion in the world get a home but Jews don’t?
See, people here don’t appreciate Zionist apologia. Go back to Reddit idiot.
In what way is conflating zionism and judaism leading to “a safe space for the Jewish people”?
- Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
This is literally part of the IHRA definition, and I’m not the one doing it, but if you’ll look at the comment sections under a lot of Israel-related or Jewish-related news on there, you’ll quickly understand why people on Lemmy don’t want to accept the common definition of antisemitism…
Great. You picked the one reasonable bit from the definition. /s
Too bad the rest of the definition tries to equate judaism and antisemitism again.
if you’ll look at the comment sections under a lot of Israel-related or Jewish-related news on there, you’ll quickly understand why people on Lemmy don’t want to accept the common definition of antisemitism…
Would you mind pointing me to these comments and stating what you mean by “common definition of antisemitism”? I don’t really get it.
Would you mind pointing me to these comments
This is one of the first ones if you search “Jews” and sort by latest
https://lemmy.ml/comment/18546783 https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/14356684 I would search more, but I’m pretty busy right now
what you mean by “common definition of antisemitism”?
By common definition I mean the IHRA definition, it’s the definition used by pretty much all Jewish institutions and in Jewish online spaces, and by some countries (Like Germany)
Where is antisemitism in the comment you linked?
Sorry, I still don’t see the antisemitism.
The IHRA definition is severely flawed and basically only accepted by Germany. The Jerusalem declaration is the more in line with “common sense”.
Look at the comment above that one.
It claims that the genocide we’re seeing right now is one in a long line of genocides perpetrated by Jews and that this proves that Israel is genocidal not because of Zionism, but that Zionism exists because Jews have always been genocidal. That’s pretty blatant antisemitism.
It continues with “The Romans knew what to do.” They sacked Jerusalem and murdered or enslaved it’s inhabitants. This comment got 10 upvotes.
Say what now? Jewish people are perfectly safe. Apologists and supporters of Israel racism and genocide should expect their abhorrent views to be challenged.
Remember the attempted murders of suspected Palestinians in the US by Zionists?
3 months ago someone stabbed a Spanish Tourist near the Holocaust memorial in Berlin because they thought they ware a Jew.
Attacks on Jewish People, not Zionists are on the rise. And Israel is doing them no favors, not disputing that. But there is actual antisemitism out there, not just the “Challenging Zionists and Genociders” kind, but also the “Death to Jews” kind.
@fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com This does seem like some of that “both-sides” Zionist apologia crap
What the fuck are you even talking about? How is idiotic, moronic definition defending genocide actually related to that?
Jewish people are perfectly safe They aren’t. That moronic definition will not help, but pretending like nothing is happening is dumb.
Jewish people are perfectly safe They aren’t.
But they are, sweetie. It is Palestinians who are being butchered daily. Around 100 people every day, murdered by Israeli criminals.
Going nuh uh and conflating Israelis and Jews doesn’t help your case, buddy.
I suspect the last sentence violates German law. Equating Israel with Nazi Germany is illegal under German law as it is considered to downplay the Holocaust because the latter has killed several magnitudes more people than Israel. From a quick search, this has been confirmed at least once by a higher regional court where a cartoonist was fined one monthly income.
Advocating for a secular one-state solution has thus far never been considered illegal by any court. The IHRA definition is not German law and will likely never be.
Since the instance is hosted in Germany, comments must abide by German law even if you disagree with said law. The instance admins are personally liable if they do not remove potentially illegal comments so I don’t see why there is an issue.
You can create another Europe community on an instance which isn’t hosted in Germany where such comments are legal.
The law is an ass if you can’t even make a comment to clarify the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. Why even host it in a country that has such restrictions?
The law is an ass if you can’t even make a comment to clarify the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
I would go a step further: The law is an ass if the police are getting themselves involved in any respect in what comments you can and can’t make.
Whether the viewpoint or argument is or isn’t reasonable, or where they choose to draw the line about what’s a perfectly fair thing to say, just doesn’t factor into it.
Why even host it in a country that has such restrictions?
Fully agree. If this is anything other than a stupid excuse, they and everyone else should make sure not to host in Germany (if this didn’t tip you off already.)
“Online trolls”
“Hate speech”
You can make this statement, only the last sentence in the comment in question is at the very best in a legal gray area.
It is perfectly legal to be opposed to zionism, even in Germany. You may need to adjust your wording, since anti-zionism can and has been considered antisemitic if antisemetic rhetoric is repeated. The statement “All zionists are pigs” would be illegal for example since the Judensau is an antisemitic symbol.
And the servers are hosted where the administrators live (note: they are hosted in Austria, their laws are nearly identical to Germany though). It wouldn’t make much of a difference - German (& Austrian) admins can be prosecuted for any content accessible in Germany (or Austria), regardless of where the content hosted. Besides, it would only take a single court order to identify the admins, see Impressumspflicht.
The statement “All zionists are pigs” would be illegal for example since the Judensau is an antisemitic symbol.
How did you move from comparison of Israeli policies to these of Nazis to pigs?
As a comparison this is extremely daft. There are no antisemitic tropes here - being against Israel commiting genocide is a sign of humanity, not antisemitism.
As a comparison this is extremely daft. There are no antisemitic tropes here - being against Israel commiting genocide is a sign of humanity, not antisemitism.
German politicians and courts disagree, since supporting Israel is withing Germany’s national interest.
This has nothing to do with moral standing. It is merely the simplest way for the german government to disavow the Shoa while still pursuing it’s economical interest.
Supporting genocide is in Germany’s national interest now? 🙄
Yeah, kinda. At least the stated national interest.
I’m not a fan of it myself, but I’m not a big fan of states in general.
Equating Israel with Nazi Germany is illegal under German law as it is considered to downplay the Holocaust
Debatable. The comment doesn’t claim that the Shoa and Gaza are comparable. Just that sanctions are justified, just like in <insert horriple example>.
Also: apparently, it’s hosted in Austria.
The comment doesn’t claim that the Shoa and Gaza are comparable
Warsaw Ghetto uprising and Gaza are clearly comparable - Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of Ghetto uprising drawn parallels between the two. I somehow don’t believe Germany would prosecute him.
You’re right, though I don’t know whether a court will see it the same. It could maybe be argued there is an implicit connection in the comment.
Also, Austria has similar enough laws. In mid 2024 someone was sentenced to 7 months on probation for equating zionists with nazis:
In that case Austria and Germany would also find Albert Einstein, Hannah Ardent, and many more to be antisemitic for their letter to the NYT
https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948
Maybe? Never did I argue about the morality of these laws. They exist and must be abided to avoid negative consequences.
Ensuring the existence of the instance has higher priority than free speech about Israel. As such I don’t see any issue on the admin’s side for removing potentially illegal comments.
Discussion about Israel’s genocide is still possible under German law. Just don’t mention nazis or the Holocaust and you are probably fine.
You are gonna talk about this issue how regime tells you to talk about it or you won’t talk about at all
Looks more like they’re trying to comply with local law.
Still protected under free speech. Feddit.org probably doesn’t get federal grants, which could get denied for “antisemitism”.
germanaustrian acceptable speech law too?We already went through this bullshit with lemmy.world and Luigi.
“The law” was used as pretext there and looks that’s what is happening here
Modlog is really good at keep them accountable though. So that’s a W for free speech enjoyers
This is another example content censorship IMHO
It amazing how these modding decisions always revolve around regime talking points. Makes ya wonder
Not sure if it makes a difference, just want to dump info here:
Feddit.org is owned by an austrian non-profit, so I assume it’s the Austrian law that they have to follow.
fediverse.foundation is their page.
